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charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <0388142B7F1FCF4C9115713F0795A18F@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR11MB2841.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8be4fc63-b07c-4e1a-4fe5-08d9ebf2c442 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Feb 2022 17:36:55.5522 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: mO1+w9bFtns5AQuYzdhJEfbdNLCKATKhSG5jIlBRO9OkeuyFHdSlInC/8HVxE2+BQ8PLKCS0w7JrJGdF66xxwg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB3710 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.17, xbe-aln-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-9.cisco.com Archived-At: X-BeenThere: rtg-bfd@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTG Area: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection DT" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2022 17:37:15 -0000 Tom, Jeff, >> If an implementation, for whatever reason, couldn't support the items th= at were covered under the new if-feature, they would have already deviated = them away. >=20 > I do not understand. The case that concerns me is an implementation writ= ten to RFC9127 that knows the rules for backwards compatibility and so know= s what it can rely on when a revised module of the same name is found. Exc= ept, AFAICT, it cannot because we are breaking the rules and giving the use= r little or no help in this I-D to work out why their software no longer wo= rks. I think what Jeff and the BFD team are saying is that there are no such imp= lementations in the real world. As far as I can tell, that may well be true= . > As Jan said, we have not done this before and are in uncharted territory.= I think we should be more helpful. And the NETMOD WG or the YANG doctors= , or both, need to produce guidelines ready for the next time. This is exactly my point. We're setting a precedence here. Let's do it righ= t. There may be nobody that cares that it's not compatible, but I still pre= fer that we establish a good template for how to declare breakages of this = kind, and then stick to it. At least until the YANG Rev DT publishes revise= d rules and official YANG statements. Best Regards, /jan >>=20 >> An implementation now has the option to not advertise the feature for th= at case. It may also perversely choose to continue to apply a deviation. >>=20 >> No new nodes have been added. Implementations (however unlikely they we= re to have been done) for RFC 9127 for these nodes would have already had t= o have dealt with them. >>=20 >> -- Jeff >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Feb 7, 2022, at 12:34 PM, t petch wrote: >>>=20 >>> On 07/02/2022 15:49, Jan Lindblad (jlindbla) wrote: >>>> Mahesh, all, >>>>=20 >>>> I tend to agree with Tom that the revision description you proposed wa= s a bit terse. What I had in mind was perhaps more along these lines: >>>>=20 >>>> description >>>> "This revision is non-backwards-compatible with the previous rev= ision. >>>>=20 >>>> This revision adds an if-feature statement for the client confi= guration parameters. >>>> If a client using the previous YANG revision of this module con= nects to a >>>> server that implements the current YANG revision of this module= , but does >>>> not implement the feature, the client may not function properly= . >>>>=20 >>>> This change was introduced despite this incompatibility because= ... >>>> ... >>>> "; >>>>=20 >>>> Don't take the text above literally, I only wrote that to give an idea= what I had in mind. There isn't much precedence for how IETF documents NBC= breakage in YANG modules, so we have to decide upon the right verbiage lev= el here. In the drafts produced by the versioning design team, there will b= e an annotation to include in cases like this, rev:non-backwards-compatib= le; which will make this rather clear. While waiting for that to be imple= mented, I'd say we should err on the side of making it a little overly clea= r, rather than hiding the fact. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> That is more what I would hope to see. The key part for me is that fac= t that an if-feature has been added. I would have added something like >>> 'Consequently, a client that does not support this feature may be unabl= e to retrieve the objects it would expect to be able to.' >>> although that may be stating the obvious! >>>=20 >>> Tom Petch >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Best Regards, >>>> /jan >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks first of all for the review. >>>>=20 >>>> On Feb 3, 2022, at 3:22 AM, Jan Lindblad via Datatracker > wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Reviewer: Jan Lindblad >>>> Review result: Ready with Issues >>>>=20 >>>> This is the last call YANG Doctor review of draft-ietf-bfd-rfc9127-bis= . >>>> Browsing the mail archives, this has been a long story. Realizing that= the >>>> context of the bis is to fix a particular issue, I have focused only o= n the >>>> diffs from RFC 9127. I feel any additional nitpicks I might find in a = complete >>>> review would not be welcome at this stage. >>>>=20 >>>> I have reviewed the diffs, and find them fulfill the desired technical= goals. >>>> Since this update breaks backwards compatibility as defined in RFC 602= 0 sec 10 >>>> and RFC 7950 sec 11, the process for approving this change has been di= scussed >>>> at length. One argument that has been put forward for going ahead is t= hat the >>>> previous version of this module was released only a short time ago, so= there is >>>> no proliferation of impacted systems in the field. >>>>=20 >>>> Another argument has been that the YANG Versioning Design Team is work= ing on >>>> updated backwards compatibility rules. The Ver-DT proposed updates to = the >>>> compatibility rules would indeed allow a change of this kind under cer= tain >>>> conditions. A key condition for allowing such a break with the backwar= ds >>>> compatibility is that the module revision history announces this break= clearly >>>> to all readers. This is not the case in the -01 version of the modules= . >>>>=20 >>>> revision 2022-01-04 { >>>> description >>>> "Updates to add client configuration parameters feature."; >>>>=20 >>>> In my YANG Doctor opinion, updating the revision statement to clearly = state >>>> that this version is not backwards compatible with the previous versio= n is an >>>> absolute requirement. I think it would also be fair to module readers = to add a >>>> few sentences explaining what's going on here. >>>>=20 >>>> How does this sound? >>>>=20 >>>> OLD: >>>> "Updates to add client configuration parameters feature."; >>>>=20 >>>> NEW: >>>> "Updates to add client configuration parameters feature. >>>> This update breaks backward compatability with earlier >>>> version of the model. The new feature prevents up to >>>> three client configuration parameters from being >>>> included, where they were not needed."; >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I think that you need more than that (for the reader who does not foll= ow the BFD WG). I think that there needs to be a reference to where the co= mpatability rules are - RFC7950 s.11 - and the nature of the breakage in th= e language of NETMOD so that readers can judge the impact thereof. >>>>=20 >>>> Tom Petch >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Mahesh Jethanandani >>>> mjethanandani@gmail.com >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- >>> last-call mailing list >>> last-call@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call >>=20 >> . >>=20