Re: [Rtg-open-source] normatively referencing open source work from standards-track RFCs
Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> Mon, 30 October 2017 22:50 UTC
Return-Path: <akatlas@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: rtg-open-source@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rtg-open-source@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FE6113F630 for <rtg-open-source@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:50:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.698
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jvd6MBBygL9u for <rtg-open-source@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:49:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-wm0-x22a.google.com (mail-wm0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4596B13F6D1 for <rtg-open-source@ietf.org>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:49:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-wm0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id s66so18745184wmf.5 for <rtg-open-source@ietf.org>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:49:59 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=RMEsBVM2Nf8wCBKjb4l7l17HbgkULr2+hrbSEK4eO4E=; b=XSWa8jGMJ59Fpep1Ekf7gd+D6lomRQDyswy/znS7/PaAoijkDj5w1qMfLfQZgeYxIa ApO68mpfO7R0+nLGj9Z0nSMjMRm86VE3gvxKNz1BguogMT7XQ0f/05iu1riC2kGrWPRH uYhBRKPOfS4rkTdJcXrNzWoSEjZGXC4ITOt+3hNe7QhtAEMSLwxfl2FO8ptMWKEi7X4N u1Yy73OxdHhLuZtCO1B9MjXcsdCCpNs69Qxsjqag0F0XoygI3ThoK87tcw4gJdGyf5bp myYmRQvDFr4ZtJygrdHbeh2t6Ax0wB05znapgeE5GL5cYjakUspUNf2jfO7iCMmHGX7Y chww==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RMEsBVM2Nf8wCBKjb4l7l17HbgkULr2+hrbSEK4eO4E=; b=D3+LdN04LIHFT8A9QkNbARcFmwFhQ2C5VS8t7bEwQVAIcxY4A0FJqkTzMwec15Vp+J OSIBuQD4jQ5XvWxPTOnGSiPrYIug2d+OE0AXIoAKmy42fZ/qwpEXT1S8S6CJrFG6aOUO 94yFg2cyn/3ta4rxqlMuRYNJqwG3pnCi/46ERz5ABBeVqdulXo66ufMdTHAWOxvrUjX+ VDVZot3A/Hn/R6fHUfIToIQDpaonMsQ0DaSO+OWk8+hRMkIecFcWSEDPi3gircYmI+BZ 9cj7kgKjAFpJ2dnFGFxJ76M+bZ6jUfHwUc4v8brNUa7gw1zGlwccyUccuCJckpKx9hCI YscA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaWZog1BnGr5SaD9vIrbUkApSlpL3tHlTMpJRvhfHPsWiB+QctSL k3mk2GvoUlHRBRn5mJHDiQ4EM33z7k4+9sbjp2A0tw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+Sr73WivXfZipVimr5apbgCzDKVq9dCdfZJA5qmEKvY0//D37DE0bTHxeyCKM7tbW+OUuNWSBMCXutxA1OGrMs=
X-Received: by 10.28.178.81 with SMTP id b78mr178679wmf.157.1509403797608; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:49:57 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.223.150.10 with HTTP; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:49:57 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <20171030180448.GV19957@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <CAG4d1rdD4tLWqjeQOuOFGyKSo4ahupAFwhBm-C+zSNguo0St4g@mail.gmail.com> <20171030180448.GV19957@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 18:49:57 -0400
Message-ID: <CAG4d1rdq160tAJi1wnu5mBCpHF7Bgm+it1EuHxw_fw+teBqWYg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
Cc: rtg-open-source@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11443e362ddf80055ccb7550"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtg-open-source/gysFmO_rROBK0ou9nqm0Xi2JTQg>
Subject: Re: [Rtg-open-source] normatively referencing open source work from standards-track RFCs
X-BeenThere: rtg-open-source@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: Discussion and collaboration for Open Source efforts related to the Routing Area <rtg-open-source.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/rtg-open-source>, <mailto:rtg-open-source-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/rtg-open-source/>
List-Post: <mailto:rtg-open-source@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rtg-open-source-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtg-open-source>, <mailto:rtg-open-source-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 22:50:03 -0000
Hi Toerless, On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote: > Thanks for this work, Alia > Thanks :-) > > Some quick comments: > > Editorial: > Its always helpfull to add a "change" section and write in that section > where this drafts content is being discussed (rtg-open-source@ietf.org). > If somebody stumbles across the draft thats the important pointer. > Yes - the primary discussion is happening on ietf@ietf.org. I raised it here because I thought it was likely to be of interest. > Payload: > My first thought was "why the heck do i care about open source", i care > about well specified behavior/API, e.g.: something that can be referred > to > for users wanting to adopt an IETF work referring to that external > source. > > So, the "why do we care" should be written better. One answer from you > was the existance of protocols not resulting from IETF work that > IETF participants want to leverage. thrift, google RPC, etc. pp. > This should be better written in the draft. > Right - the motivation that I see is that open source projects are increasingly creating artifacts that could be good to build on. I didn't write the policy to be dependent on the source. > But IMHO there is something more fundamental that we may want to > highlight: > > 1. The IETF should be able to incooperate any external work as long > as it meets well defined criteria. I am not on top of all the existing > IETF docs defining this, but it seems somewhat convoluted and restricted > to some form of "SDO". > Right - I crawled down that rabbit hole in RFC2026 and RFC3697. Technically, it is possible to reference proprietary specifications - but the ID-nits checklist strongly discourages it. The details in the draft don't restrict the source. > 2. What IMHO fundamentlly has happened is that because of the Internet > (grin), we now got a lot of collaborative SW development that manages > to establish itself as "de-facto-standards" in their area. And if > that work meets those well defined criteria, then IETF should be able > to use it. > Exactly! > I don't have exact text to propose right now, but what i would like to > understand is what the worst most lightweight way would be to adopt an > external > created protocol/API/etc (lowest common denominator): > > So lets say theree is this protocol where the OSS developers do not > care about IETF at all and don't get engaged. Some IETF folks though > would like to use the work as part of their standard. > > So, whats the minimum set of steps for these IETF folks to be able > to use this external work as normative reference ? > Well, that's what we've specified in this version - or at least our best initial thoughts. First is whether the external work meets requirements as far as stable, immutable, mature, clear IPR info, generally accessible and not confidential, and intended as a public interface. Second is to have the WG agree to use it at WG adoption, confirm at WGLC, mention it at IETF Last Call & in shepherd's report, and then recorded into a registry after IESG approval - so reuse is easy and all those steps aren't necessary. > Maybe have a bar discussion in singapore ? > Would happy to contribute/co-author if you're interested. > I'd be delighted to talk in Singapore. Thanks for your interest. Regards, Alia > Cheers > Toerless > > On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 10:57:04PM -0400, Alia Atlas wrote: > > Although this list has been regrettably silent, I have still been > thinking > > about what could be done > > to better improve interactions between the IETF and the variety of Open > > Source organizations and projects. I would love your opinions and > > perspective. > > > > One obvious issue that jumped out at me is that it currently is quite > > discouraged for a standards-track RFC to normatively reference non-SDO > work > > and part of this is the lack of clear policy around it. Since normative > > references basically restrict what technology can be built on top of > which > > and how, fixing this can give a means for the IETF to publish standards > > that use mature Open Source technology. > > > > Please take a look and discuss here what you think. What things did I > > miss (other than the typo for the dedicated reviewers ;-) ? Would this > > give clear enough guidance? > > > > Regards & Thanks, > > Alia > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org> > > Date: Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 10:36 PM > > Subject: I-D Action: draft-atlas-external-normref-00.txt > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > > > > > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > > directories. > > > > > > Title : Normative References in RFCs from Open Source > > Authors : Alia Atlas > > Eliot Lear > > Joel Halpern > > Heather Flanagan > > Jeff Tantsura > > Filename : draft-atlas-external-normref-00.txt > > Pages : 6 > > Date : 2017-10-29 > > > > Abstract: > > IETF procedures generally require that a standards track RFC may not > > have a normative reference to a non standards track specification > > except those from other > > standards bodies. This document creates an External Specification > > registry, similar to the DownRef registry that has been created based > > on [RFC3967] and permits normative references to community accepted > > external specifications. > > > > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-atlas-external-normref/ > > > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-atlas-external-normref-00 > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-atlas-external-normref-00 > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > I-D-Announce mailing list > > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > > -- > --- > tte@cs.fau.de >
- [Rtg-open-source] normatively referencing open so… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Rtg-open-source] normatively referencing ope… Peter Hessler
- Re: [Rtg-open-source] normatively referencing ope… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Rtg-open-source] normatively referencing ope… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Rtg-open-source] normatively referencing ope… Alia Atlas
- Re: [Rtg-open-source] normatively referencing ope… Toerless Eckert