Re: [GROW] [Lsr] FW: New Version Notification for draft-gu-network-mornitoring-protol-00.txt

Greg Skinner <gregskinner0@icloud.com> Mon, 09 July 2018 03:58 UTC

Return-Path: <gregskinner0@icloud.com>
X-Original-To: rtgwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rtgwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C65A130E13; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 20:58:44 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.449
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=icloud.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hZHIlOsXsqKj; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 20:58:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mr90p54im-ztdg04142001.me.com (mr90p54im-ztdg04142001.me.com [17.120.66.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20598130E11; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 20:58:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from process-dkim-sign-daemon.mr90p54im-ztdg04142001.me.com by mr90p54im-ztdg04142001.me.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.2.20170607 64bit (built Jun 7 2017)) id <0PBK00M00YTULJ00@mr90p54im-ztdg04142001.me.com>; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 03:58:41 +0000 (GMT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=04042017; t=1531108721; bh=7oSE7lma3/MXiMcf/l4Fdjspafsw8ONTNuo6bm9Mk7M=; h=From:Message-id:Content-type:MIME-version:Subject:Date:To; b=pVElb3/ggDbXPs1DdQLo5nUjIjTffO4tgxp7ZMv20frSH5tKZLN1ohtBuP97NDSJn LELfJcDgJo7LhjIwYq+89tKXwBRWkby3Df/MR4mXbVAAPU4Wy7SCH6BfgYZva173y3 MnyGNwY1HnDD7msKaBU3IB8tCc5E8pDff7LgBAS06QWiQD1xNVX5IrwEGeJpgf1t4G wkR9FjJfJykyFTCTZ+hlaBzP+i+d8fsYhmgsEPO0IFjjigow7TUiXHgooiZkPvD19L fcdSNEh5gGN1MP0xGlM6OZxKxnBdCl9dhGpvbrlE3qWgRGclYsqw7246YQdJ33ThwM 4kUcEbjXOnQHg==
Received: from icloud.com ([127.0.0.1]) by mr90p54im-ztdg04142001.me.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.2.20170607 64bit (built Jun 7 2017)) with ESMTPSA id <0PBK00O02Z1OVO00@mr90p54im-ztdg04142001.me.com>; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 03:58:41 +0000 (GMT)
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:,, definitions=2018-07-09_01:,, signatures=0
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 suspectscore=3 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1807090045
From: Greg Skinner <gregskinner0@icloud.com>
Message-id: <14AE5E1F-CE52-4061-A1B5-F34FCA8E461F@icloud.com>
Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B2D33E9D-4BB6-4726-9C0D-4D3504EE01EE"
MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\))
Subject: Re: [GROW] [Lsr] FW: New Version Notification for draft-gu-network-mornitoring-protol-00.txt
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 20:58:35 -0700
In-reply-to: <m236wu8l40.wl-randy@psg.com>
Cc: GMO Crops <grow@ietf.org>, opsawg@ietf.org, lsr@ietf.org, rtgwg@ietf.org
To: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>, lizhenbin@huawei.com
References: <624FB76E-1588-4D6E-8DD6-A666C77A9201@gmail.com> <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D8F43FE44@dggemm512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <B8E2C2E6-BE62-4624-A2AD-E54647ED8EF1@cisco.com> <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D8F4403E7@dggemm512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <m236wu8l40.wl-randy@psg.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtgwg/FiQ6FfgJCy-fLcph9Q8wqgjPAz4>
X-BeenThere: rtgwg@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26
Precedence: list
List-Id: Routing Area Working Group <rtgwg.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/rtgwg>, <mailto:rtgwg-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/rtgwg/>
List-Post: <mailto:rtgwg@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rtgwg-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg>, <mailto:rtgwg-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 03:58:46 -0000

Randy,

Is the OPS-NM Configuration Management Requirements (ops-nm) Bof <https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/52/176.htm> from IETF 52 (10 December 2001) the meeting you were thinking of?  There are also references to an IAB meeting in 2002 about the lack of use of SNMP for network configuration in SNMP compared with CLI, Netconf, Netflow <https://www.snmpcenter.com/snmp-versus-other-protocols/> that culminated in RFC 3535 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3535>.

Robin,

Regarding the draft in question, I generally agree with the concerns others have made that it doesn’t appear to provide anything that other technologies such as YANG provide.  Also, IMO, the draft needs considerable work to be more easily understood.  For example, there are many acronyms such as CSNP and PSNP that are not defined, and may be misunderstood by readers not familiar with ISIS.  In the packet format sections, there are several uncapitalized uses of ‘should’.  Do the authors consider these to be non-normative requirements?  There are also statements such as "Network OAM statistics show that a relatively large part of the network issues are caused by the disfunction of various routing protocols and MPLS signalings” that are offered without citations.

Regards,
Greg

> On Jul 7, 2018, at 8:25 PM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
> 
> robin,
> 
> i am not ignoring you.  i did not want to write unless i had something
> possibly useful to say; and that requires pretending to think, always
> difficult.
> 
>> I would also like to propose following draft for your reference which
>> trigger us to move forward for better network maintenance with
>> multiple tools in which gRPC/NETCOF and NMP/BMP may play different
>> roles: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-ntf/
> 
> [ warning: my memory is likely fuzzy, and the glass is dark ]
> 
> at an ietf in the late '90s[0], there was a hastily called meeting of
> the snmp standards bearers and a bunch of operators.  the snmp folk were
> shocked to learn that no operators used snmp for other than monitoring;
> no one had snmp write enabled on devices; ops configured with the
> cli[1].  from this was born netconf and the xml path.  credit where due:
> phil eng was already well down this path at the time of that meeting.
> 
> but netconf/xml was a mechanism and lacked a model.  snmp had models,
> whether we thought they were pretty or not.  thus yang was born, and ,
> of course, a new generation wants to use the latest modern toys such as
> restconf, openconfig, json, ...
> 
> draft-song-ntf yearns for an "architectural framework for network
> telemetry," a lofty and worthwhile goal not, a priori, a bad one.  but a
> few comments from a jaded old dog.
> 
> for a new paradigm to gain traction, it must be *significantly* better
> than the old one, or the old paradigm must be clearly failing.  in the
> story above, snmp was clearly failing, aside from using an unfashionable
> encoding.  and yang clearly provided something needed and missing from
> netconf.  note that this paradigm shift has taken over 20 years; and we
> dis the itu et alia.
> 
> second, draft-song-ntf is an export-only model.  while telemetry is
> extremely important, i will be very frustrated if i can only hear and
> may not speak.  and the more it evolves to a really attractive paradigm
> and model, the more annoyed i will be that i can not use it for control.
> 
> and lastly, to quote don knuth, "premature optimization is the root of
> all evil."  do not get distracted by squeezing bits out of an encoding.
> focus on things such as simple, clear, securable, extensible ...
> 
> randy
> 
> ---
> 
> 0 - i would love help pinning down which meeting
> 
> 1 - i still have the "it's the cli, stupid" tee shirt.  an american
>    political slogan of the era was "it's the economy, stupid."
>