Re: [Rum] Codec requirements in draft-rosen-rue-01

Brian Rosen <> Wed, 04 September 2019 13:54 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19099120100 for <>; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 06:54:46 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.888
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key)
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LUb9iD9QQmm8 for <>; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 06:54:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ( [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::744]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB13E120106 for <>; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 06:54:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by with SMTP id s18so8609428qkj.3 for <>; Wed, 04 Sep 2019 06:54:42 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=rAYwQ5sVnykjRxV3sayAnlustt7UuDtRM8qMCzBkCsY=; b=GqWr6YUZdD9sGBi8nx7PvWhrC43o3TZMMeufVw9y8rREcAcbUFLOZKqMuWISM5673t 6e5aCdhKGlUzEtQBICs8rpg1bJBAh9RZK2bPPt2FlqQsgNSKeURSjiLHbaQUXqoWvLDk SkRhoBMAD47E5Mb26kQ5I5Fd8Y2k5Ort42uxcbZ/TeM1WNtNNT2vAWRc59oS8WVKdy3H D03EdciR8jVXKQXKeKM1xloZz0yNJsxHPa9WvmDfLA/YWHBvkmlGl8VlH6+C97PUdAuH h1bL8MyGCKp+sGAwNXTaohWwDS7A2pEZeqwHqBMGcUv8plBwvVu0MhEgH9XvmzRQ3Ape Z6kQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=rAYwQ5sVnykjRxV3sayAnlustt7UuDtRM8qMCzBkCsY=; b=TpAjVFVHwQ5JNqeUHu1n6uvI6dyBgTIil0QLusrCl/auJZfiI9XWPeev71wXWPFuPv uaFdPAcszQ085g0lf9P+2GXHOdqLDhq/VLcHESG50YSuiB2YcbGKh6KNl/8GCzbNftgv jUd352LsZy/H0E+awWWSYugdiCYcmk1qElcpK0RI7yGHPmISiOEVP7G/JzMY23h8s7zJ a/2Rqv0FmudroC0bjfl0C6cIujl8/aTa2doG0/T1H6j6N7RD69HFqSzMA3r3AIlkRSN9 6fxHqeV3j/tABuGZjSECxZiWBYqVaoWkZju4t3E51MfsRkZmALpKG3r6/TM7OVuV65QP iEUw==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUpIEU3fOCsLLqauotXMfNdBxPeL3Ha2uJj5/Ci3L5lNGnzVvqQ f5G+cUChDmwLb7knNlCxoZo07A==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxHnof7JRRDjIqJvHPjz63vQgQ1dppCYcmbpiAisCg1NLICBCYJaoava+vQaM9JoQ2KG4O5Ng==
X-Received: by 2002:a37:4651:: with SMTP id t78mr18280150qka.259.1567605281815; Wed, 04 Sep 2019 06:54:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from brians-mbp-2388.lan ([]) by with ESMTPSA id f34sm11532547qtc.19.2019. (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Sep 2019 06:54:41 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\))
From: Brian Rosen <>
In-Reply-To: <>
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 09:54:39 -0400
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <>
References: <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
To: Paul Kyzivat <>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11)
Archived-At: <>
Subject: Re: [Rum] Codec requirements in draft-rosen-rue-01
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Relay User Machine <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2019 13:54:46 -0000

I think our consensus is MTI:
Audio: G.711 and Opus
Video: H.264

We need to get into the details of H.264 to maintain compatibility with the WebRTC specs and as much backwards compatibility as possible.

Anyone object?

> On Sep 3, 2019, at 10:48 AM, Paul Kyzivat <> wrote:
> On 9/2/19 4:39 AM, James Hamlin wrote:
>> Just to add: the VRS industry supports a variety of endpoints, many of which are hardware based and not built by VRS providers themselves. H.264 and G..711 therefore need to be in the MTI list.
>> I believe the FCC order related to compensation by compliant providers not that every call had to come from a compliant endpoint.
> Sorry if I got that wrong. I wrote that from memory and perhaps my memory is faulty.
> 	Thanks,
> 	Paul
>> Best Regards
>> James
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Rum <> on behalf of Paul Kyzivat <>
>> Sent: 28 August 2019 16:48
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: [Rum] Codec requirements in draft-rosen-rue-01
>> On 8/28/19 11:25 AM, Eric Burger wrote:
>>> I guess the question is whether we want today’s devices to have a chance of being RUM compatible. I don’t think anyone will be surprised if a five-year-old device is history. Is it realistic for current devices to get VP8 upgrade? [Would be nice for some manufacturers or others building such devices to pipe in here.]
>> Lets be clear about what we mean by "RUM compatible".
>> When Henning and I were working on this with the providers in 2014 and
>> 2015 there was an expectation that the providers would be required to
>> support the defined RUE devices, but they would also be permitted to
>> support their existing proprietary devices. The RUE devices could have
>> requirements that their existing devices don't meet. But calls between
>> the two were expected to work.
>> There was great consternation when subsequently the FCC issued a
>> proposed order that said only VRS calls involving RUE-compatible devices
>> would be compensated. (But that was in 2015. I presume it has not happened.)
>> If there is an intent to exclude non-RUM-compliant devices from use in
>> VRS calls then there needs to be a migration plan to get from here to there.
>>         Thanks,
>>         Paul
>>>> On Aug 28, 2019, at 10:38 AM, Brian Rosen <> wrote:
>>>> If we require OPUS and G.711 as MTI and we require both H.264 and VP8 as MTI, then we get backwards compatibility without transcoding and forwards compatibility with WebRTC.  Isn’t that what we want?
>>>> Brian
>>>>> On Aug 28, 2019, at 10:15 AM, Paul Kyzivat <> wrote:
>>>>> Inline...
>>>>> On 8/27/19 5:57 PM, Adam Roach wrote:
>>>>>> I certainly have thoughts. The executive summary is that I personally believe RUM should specify Opus as the one audio codec MTI, and match RFC 7742's "Non-Browser" requirements for the video codec MTI. Rationale below.
>>>>>>  From an interop perspective, the important thing is that any given profile has (at least) one MTI video codec and (at least) one MTI audio codec.. I know there is a strong desire -- one that I share -- that these endpoints can talk to/be implemented in web browsers without the need for media transcoding.
>>>>>> For audio: WebRTC selected G.711 and Opus as both MTI; the former because it works without transcoding to landline PSTN destinations, and the latter because it sounds much, much better. RUM could make the same decision; or it could decide to move away from a codec that is as old as I am and opt to designate Opus as the only MTI. Given that RUM inherently needs to deploy into audio/video environments, backwards compatibility with the PSTN seems to be unnecessary baggage.
>>>>> Please keep in mind where we are coming from. The RUM will be a new interface to the *existing* VRS infrastructure. That infrastructure currently has proprietary devices that serve the RUE function, deployed to VRS users and to Communications Assistants (CAs, Interpreters). These have G.711 MTI, and also *recommend* G.722.2.
>>>>> Making OPUS the only MTI audio codec would be problematic.
>>>>>> For video: While specifying either VP8 or H.264 would be sufficient for system interop, and for interop with compliant WebRTC endpoints, I'd really prefer not to re-live the WebRTC video codec wars. Concretely, what I would propose is that RUM indicate that the video codec requirements are defined to be identical to those defined for "WebRTC Non-Browsers" in Section 5 of RFC 7742. It should be made clear that RUM endpoints *are* *not* WebRTC Non-Browsers per se; merely that they comply with the same video codec requirements as WebRTC Non-Browsers.
>>>>> Continuing my comment above, existing devices have H.264 Constrained Baseline Profile, Level 1.3, packetization mode 1 as the MTI codec. Odds are many of these devices aren't capable of VP8.
>>>>> We can't realistically require a wholesale swap out of existing devices before the RUE defined by RUM can work. We can *discuss* whether forcing the providers to transcode is a practical way forward. I'm dubious.
>>>>>     Thanks,
>>>>>     Paul
>>>>>> /a
>>>>>> On 8/27/19 2:34 PM, Brian Rosen wrote:
>>>>>>> Well, we certainly want interoperability, and I think we can only get that with MTI codecs.
>>>>>>> I think we really are talking about a WebRTC-compatible endpoint, but we want interoperability with a WebRTC browser endpoint.
>>>>>>> Not sure how to say this.  Maybe Adam can help.
>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>>> On Aug 12, 2019, at 4:20 PM, Paul Kyzivat <> wrote:
>>>>>>>> draft-rosen-rue-01 changes the video codec requirements. It now simply references webrtc RFC7742.
>>>>>>>> RFC7742 distinguishes three types of endpoints: "WebRTC browser", "WebRTC non-browser", and "WebRTC-compatible endpoint". AFAIK it assumes that each end is one of these.
>>>>>>>> Is the expectation here that both the RUE and the provider comply with one of these? In particular, that the provider may simply be a "WebRTC-compatible endpoint? Notably:
>>>>>>>>    "WebRTC-compatible endpoints" are free to implement any video codecs
>>>>>>>>    they see fit.  This follows logically from the definition of "WebRTC-
>>>>>>>>    compatible endpoint".  It is, of course, advisable to implement at
>>>>>>>>    least one of the video codecs that is mandated for WebRTC browsers,
>>>>>>>>    and implementors are encouraged to do so.
>>>>>>>> Similarly, the audio requirements have been changed to reference webrtc RFC7874. That one doesn't have the distinction between "WebRTC browser", "WebRTC non-browser", and "WebRTC-compatible endpoint". It applies the same requirements to all. In particular, it requires OPUS support. I don't know why it doesn't make the same endpoint distinctions as for video.
>>>>>>>> I think simply referencing these documents isn't sufficient. Seems like we need a more nuanced specification of what is required, though we may still reference these docs with qualifications.
>>>>>>>>     Thanks,
>>>>>>>>     Paul
>>>> --
>>>> Rum mailing list
>> --
>> Rum mailing list
> -- 
> Rum mailing list