Why Scopes? (was: Re: [saad] About saad)

"James Kempf" <kempf@docomolabs-usa.com> Fri, 17 October 2003 17:13 UTC

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Message-ID: <021401c394d0$861298e0$396015ac@dclkempt40>
From: "James Kempf" <kempf@docomolabs-usa.com>
To: "Michel Py" <michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us>
Cc: <saad@ietf.org>
References: <DD7FE473A8C3C245ADA2A2FE1709D90B06C666@server2003.arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us>
Subject: Why Scopes? (was: Re: [saad] About saad)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 10:03:01 -0700
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One of the things I'd like to see is a list of why people use scoped
addresses (RFC 1918) in IPv4. Clearly, NATs are popular in IPv4 for reasons
other than lack of address space, and simply condemning them as evil or even
arguing against them without understanding why people want them isn't likely
to result in a usable technical solution, and probably won't persuade people
to stop using them anyway.

Given that list, one could then go through it and figure out what reasons
really do need to be dealt with at the network layer and what reasons could
more easily be dealt with at another layer. The result could be a kind of
list of requirements for a technical solution. The solution need not be a
new one, but it also could be.

I've never seen such an analysis done during the entire discussion on the
IPv6 list, though occasionally people do mention some reasons in email.

            jak



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michel Py" <michel@arneill-py.sacramento.ca.us>
To: "James Kempf" <kempf@docomolabs-usa.com>om>; "Fred Baker" <fred@cisco.com>
Cc: <saad@ietf.org>
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 9:53 AM
Subject: RE: [saad] About saad


> Folks,
>
>
> > James Kempf wrote:
> > The DNS is a node identifier, but it currently can't be used by
> > the transport layer as a connection endpoint identifier.
>
> Nor by the network layer.
>
>
> > Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> > The reasons why FQDNs are imperfect EIDs have been listed quite
> > recently (on one of the IPV6 lists I think).
>
> Indeed. Besides, what we are talking about is scoping, and one of the
> things that is totally in scope is to discuss at which layer(s) scoping
> shall occur.
>
>
> IMHO, scoping shall occur at the IP layer. The fact of the matter is (as
> this discussion as shown) it seems that scoping is tied to the
> identifier. I think that one of the sound discussions we should have is
> to identify if indeed this is true. My vote is yes.
>
> Now, _if_ the identifier is moved above the network layer, and if scope
> is tied to the identifier as we might or might not decide it is, we
> suddenly have a layer violation, because scope is going to be used at
> the routing layer (the IP layer) and for the same reason routing must
> not use DNS (because DNS needs routing) we will likely bump into the
> issue that scope could not use {whatever the identifier in an upper
> layer is} because of the same circular reference issue.
>
> So, IMHO the beginning of the decision tree is:
>
>      |
>      v
>      |
>      /\
>     /  \
>    / Is \          +----------------------------+
>   /scope \         | Since we don't have        |
>  /  tied  \        | identifiers at another     |
> / to the   \  yes  | layer than IP now,         |
> \identifier/--->---+ scoping is to be done      |
>  \or not? /        | at the network layer.      |
>   \      /         | if we ever get identifiers |
>    \    /          | in other layers, situation |
>     \  /           | will be revisited then.    |
>      \/            +----------------------------+
>      |
>      v  no
>      |
> +----+----------+
> | what are the  |
> | reasons to    |
> | move scope to |
> | another layer |
> | than IP?      |
> +----+----------+
>      |
>      | ???
>      |
>
>
> Comments?
>
> Michel.
>
>
>


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