Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-08.txt
Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> Tue, 12 November 2019 07:07 UTC
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From: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
CC: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>, "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Mirja Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehlewind=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, tsvwg IETF list <tsvwg@ietf.org>, "saag@ietf.org" <saag@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-08.txt
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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 07:06:58 +0000
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References: <67CE4313-A4C2-4CC7-972E-CB465D47B7FE@ericsson.com> <998B7C3E-54D8-40AC-BF91-901390CF70C5@strayalpha.com> <CAPDSy+5rvaXgEGZ7_V4pRdmBss7Hf1XmaGbiXGZceQu9hjjRTQ@mail.gmail.com> <1573035094775.62307@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <87d3bcef-42e4-1535-db1f-06a8408d38d5@cs.tcd.ie> <1573109463764.56084@cs.auckland.ac.nz>, <CALx6S36-44Ya9eMEjzCHA=Le5dTBd+ENuY3GQd5Jv691LUQDAQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-08.txt
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Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> writes: >The problems of protocol ossification and middleboxes meddling in E2E >protocols has been discussed at length in IETF in various contexts. I'm aware of RFC 3234, which was written seventeen years ago and focuses on middleboxes messing with application-layer data, as well as farcical stuff like RFC 3424, of the same vintage, but it's mostly complaining rather than actual rigorous analysis, and often seems to be based on opposition to middleboxes as an article of faith, notoriously manifested in IPsec's "NAT is bad, therefore we will make sure IPsec breaks NAT, because NAT is bad", which has caused endless headaches for pretty much anyone who's ever had to work with IPsec ever since. In particular for this case, since the discussion is about header encryption and not middleboxes in general, I'm not aware of any rigorous analysis of its purported benefits, or even a clear statement of its purported benefits, something like "here is a definition of the service that header encryption provides, here is a real-world study showing that it provides this and demonstrating that it can't be readily defeated". Contrast this with the two dozen plus studies that look at the analysis of encrypted traffic despite the encryption, an example being (just one picked at random) "Identifying HTTPS- Protected Netflix Videos in Real-Time", Andrew Reed and Michael Kranch, Proceedings of the 7th Conference on Data and Application Security and Privacy (CODASPY'17), March 2017, p.361. So when people complain that the draft doesn't say enough about all the Good Things header encryption provides, I would respond that it does, it's cited all of the available literature on the benefits of header encryption, and all of the studies showing that it's effective, in Appendix B. The draft is actually quite restrained in this regard, as I mentioned in my previous message the two notable examples of header encryption/protection deployed at scale into the real world, IPsec and SSH, have both been a disaster (for functionality, IPsec, and security, SSH), but it very politely omits mention of this. Peter.
- [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-enc… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Christian Huitema
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Christian Huitema
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Joe Touch
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Christopher Wood
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… David Schinazi
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Frode Kileng
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Colin Perkins
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… David Schinazi
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Colin Perkins
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… David Schinazi
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… Michael Richardson
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Peter Gutmann