Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic?
Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> Wed, 02 September 2020 19:19 UTC
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 12:19:11 -0700
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To: sarikaya@ieee.org
Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, IETF SAAG <saag@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic?
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On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 10:37 AM Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya2012@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 11:45 AM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote: > >> QUIC ended up with a different taxonomy: >> On-path >> Off-path >> Limited on-path (cannot delete) >> >> > Speaking of QUIC, I was surprised to read that QUIC is a UDP protocol. > QUIC document talks about > - connection establishment, > -stream based multiplexed operation, > -flow control, > -ACK frame > - on and on > are all TCP-like features. > > My guess is that the mention of UDP-based was a sales-pitch :) > QUIC is a next-generation transport protocol that runs *over* UDP. In an earlier era, it might have been designed to run over IP as SCTP was, but for operational reasons (firewall/NAT traversal and the ability to iterate rapidly), it is run over UDP instead. -Ekr Behcet > >> -Ekr >> >> >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-transport-29#section-21.12.3.1 >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 9:28 AM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> I think most of us agree that an "on-path" attacker can read traffic. >>> They can problem inject traffic, and maybe even inject it in such a way >>> that >>> it beats the real traffic. >>> >>> I think that most of us can agree that an off-path attacker can not read >>> traffic. >>> >>> So for instance, and on-path attacker can see the TCP SYN seq no or a DNS >>> query ID, and therefore answer correctly. >>> And off-path attacker has to depend upon implementation flaws to guess >>> those >>> values. (Which at one point were very common) >>> >>> A read-only on-path attacker that can read can be implemented with a >>> MIRROR/SPAN port. >>> Or as we learnt a few years ago with creative bending of fiber. >>> >>> A firewall or router is a potential on-path attacker, but it can also >>> drop packets. >>> What do we call this? >>> This was historically called a MITM, and it implied all the attributes of >>> on-path. But it is unclear to me if MITM > on-path, or MITM == on-path. >>> >>> -- >>> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works >>> -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> saag mailing list >>> saag@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/saag >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> saag mailing list >> saag@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/saag >> >
- [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Michael Richardson
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Eric Rescorla
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Christian Huitema
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Eric Rescorla
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Nico Williams
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Carsten Bormann
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Dan Harkins
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Carsten Bormann
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Fernando Gont
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Eric Rescorla
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Dan Harkins
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Michael Richardson
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Eric Rescorla
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Eric Rescorla
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Eric Rescorla
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Peter Gutmann
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Christian Huitema
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Dan Harkins
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Paul Hoffman
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Carsten Bormann
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Alan DeKok
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Dan Harkins
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Michael Richardson
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Nico Williams
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Eric Rescorla
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Eric Rescorla
- Re: [saag] can an on-path attacker drop traffic? Michael Richardson