Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-08.txt
Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> Tue, 12 November 2019 15:55 UTC
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References: <67CE4313-A4C2-4CC7-972E-CB465D47B7FE@ericsson.com> <998B7C3E-54D8-40AC-BF91-901390CF70C5@strayalpha.com> <CAPDSy+5rvaXgEGZ7_V4pRdmBss7Hf1XmaGbiXGZceQu9hjjRTQ@mail.gmail.com> <1573035094775.62307@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <87d3bcef-42e4-1535-db1f-06a8408d38d5@cs.tcd.ie> <1573109463764.56084@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 07:54:58 -0800
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To: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Cc: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>, "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Mirja Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehlewind=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, tsvwg IETF list <tsvwg@ietf.org>, "saag@ietf.org" <saag@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-08.txt
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On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 10:51 PM Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz> wrote: > . So on the one hand we've got real-world experience with two protocols > that do header encryption/protection which has yielded endless problems > (IPsec) and security vulns (SSH), and on the other hand we've got what > seems > to be a faith-based belief in something that numerous academic papers have > shown doesn't provide the service it claims to. > On the other hand, we also have WebRTC which tunnels SCTP over DTLS (thus encrypting the SCTP headers) and that seems to work out fine. As far as "the services it claims to", the primary argument for encrypting headers in QUIC (and the handshake metadata in TLS 1.3) is to prevent middleboxes interfering with protocol evolution. We certainly have evidence of a number of cass where that has happened, though I don't think we yet have strong evidence that encrypting more of the metadata prevents this from happening because we mostly just started doing so. OTOH, I'm not aware of any academic papers showing the contrary. -Ekr
- [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-enc… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Christian Huitema
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Christian Huitema
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Joe Touch
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Christopher Wood
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… David Schinazi
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Frode Kileng
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Colin Perkins
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… David Schinazi
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Colin Perkins
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… David Schinazi
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… Michael Richardson
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [saag] [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Peter Gutmann