Re: [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ Maintenance WG"

Christine Cloostermans <cvvrede@gmail.com> Mon, 28 March 2022 14:49 UTC

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From: Christine Cloostermans <cvvrede@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:49:02 +0200
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To: Mike Prorock <mprorock@mesur.io>
Cc: Rebecca Guthrie <rmguthr=40uwe.nsa.gov@dmarc.ietf.org>, "saag@ietf.org" <saag@ietf.org>, "Kampanakis, Panos" <kpanos=40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ Maintenance WG"
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Hi all,

I am unsure whether the WG makes sense unless there are specific uncovered
work items, but I do think it makes sense to have a platform where such
work items can be identified.
Since PQC is a topic that will touch so many areas, I think it makes sense
if there is a place to zoom out and look at the big picture for missing
items.

In this regard, the wiki is a very good and useful initiative, and I think
a mailing list where discussion can be held, like whether work is being
done in a certain area, which WG would be a natural home, whether the wiki
needs to be updated, and whether there are work items uncovered by another
workgroup, might be a good solution as well.
Then if the latter in this list is the case, then a WG can still be
discussed at that time?

Just my two cents, cheers,

Christine Cloostermans

Op ma 28 mrt. 2022 om 14:19 schreef Mike Prorock <mprorock@mesur.io>:

> +1 Rebecca - add to list on the wiki
> Mailing list on PQC could be helpful as there are topics that cross WGs.
>
> Panos,
> I do think there are items that will arise (or that are arising) that
> might ot cleanly fit into one of the existing WGs which I believe you
> were referring to and finding a home and an approach will likely be needed.
>
> Mike Prorock
> CTO, Founder
> https://mesur.io/
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 6:05 PM Rebecca Guthrie <rmguthr=
> 40uwe.nsa.gov@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Panos,
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, I agree that the drafts do all belong to those respective working
>> groups. To clarify, I only meant to suggest that these drafts be added to
>> the list of PQ work in IETF at
>> https://trac.ietf.org/trac/sec/wiki/PQCAgility, not that these become
>> work items for the PQ WG.
>>
>>
>>
>> Rebecca
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* saag <saag-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of * Kampanakis, Panos
>> *Sent:* Friday, March 25, 2022 11:47 PM
>> *To:* Mike Prorock <mprorock@mesur.io>; Rebecca Guthrie <rmguthr=
>> 40uwe.nsa.gov@dmarc.ietf.org>
>> *Cc:* saag@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ Maintenance WG"
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Mike, Rebecca,
>>
>>
>>
>> As much I would like for this new WG to be formed, I am of the opinion
>> that if these two work items have a good existing WG, they should be worked
>> there.
>>
>>
>>
>> To me, it seems that draft-guthrie-ipsecme-ikev2-hybrid-auth belongs to
>> IPSECME, draft-becker-guthrie-cert-binding-for-multi-auth belongs to
>> LAMPS, draft-becker-guthrie-noncomposite-hybrid-auth
>> <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-becker-guthrie-noncomposite-hybrid-auth&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639524961%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=pf5tYMyCs2tvlrq1%2FTgle1HwETftYMBNl1EYUVhKxWU%3D&reserved=0>
>>  belongs to TLS or LAMPS, draft-uni-qsckeys-00
>> <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fid%2Fdraft-uni-qsckeys-00.html&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639524961%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=2OKMHoYrceU%2BBbIOMcn6jJeSVPFKdE5IS%2F5%2F1IYrsV0%3D&reserved=0>
>> belongs to LAMPS and draft-prorock-cose-post-quantum-signatures belongs to
>> COSE. It is always better to bring drafts to their corresponding areas of
>> expertise if it exists as that would guarantee the quality of a draft.
>>
>>
>>
>> Personally, I think the new PQ WG should focus on areas whose WGs have
>> concluded and are currently orphan from an IETF WG.
>>
>>
>>
>> Rgs,
>>
>> Panos
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* saag <saag-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Mike Prorock
>> *Sent:* Friday, March 25, 2022 9:08 AM
>> *To:* Rebecca Guthrie <rmguthr=40uwe.nsa.gov@dmarc.ietf.org>
>> *Cc:* saag@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* RE: [EXTERNAL] [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ
>> Maintenance WG"
>>
>>
>>
>> *CAUTION*: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do
>> not click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and
>> know the content is safe.
>>
>>
>>
>> Email crossed - yes, thank you Rebecca - we are actively working on the
>> PQC Signature side of things with some great support from a variety of
>> parties.  Getting a defined list as this is an evolving space would be
>> great.
>>
>>
>> Mike Prorock
>>
>> CTO, Founder
>>
>> https://mesur.io/
>> <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmesur.io%2F&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639680751%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=r1CFZbUj7O%2BNo6JVlgbYcE77PdxFFTUq4G4FVkt9thg%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 7:19 AM Rebecca Guthrie <rmguthr=
>> 40uwe.nsa.gov@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Roman,
>>
>> Thank you for keeping track of the PQ work in IETF (and thanks to Panos
>> for reviving this topic)! Is the PQ activity list something that others are
>> able to update? There is a draft, JSON Encoding for PQ Signatures
>> (draft-prorock-cose-post-quantum-signatures-00), and another newly-uploaded
>> draft, draft-guthrie-ipsecme-ikev2-hybrid-auth, that can be added to the
>> list.
>>
>> Also- though it is still being worked out which protocols are in the
>> scope of the proposed PQ Agility WG charter, could it be helpful to
>> establish a separate mail-list, as a place to begin these conversations?
>>
>> Rebecca
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: saag <saag-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2022 8:02 AM
>> To: Kampanakis, Panos <kpanos@amazon.com>; saag@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ Maintenance WG"
>>
>> Hi Panos!
>>
>> No updates.  While there is concrete charter text describing the
>> mechanics of how such a hypothetical WG would operate, it doesn't describe
>> what protocols would be in scope for the initial body of work.  Progress is
>> blocked pending identification of such initial milestones (i.e., what
>> protocols need a PQC re-design but don't have an existing WG to address it).
>>
>> Feedback continues to be welcome on this list (saag@ietf).  I've been
>> trying to keep a running summary of the PQC work in the IETF at
>> https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftrac.ietf.org%2Ftrac%2Fsec%2Fwiki%2FPQCAgility&amp;data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C654932872ddc4f843f7808da0cc51cae%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637836337995913584%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=AoUcD0vWmShCxinFoJRzqq8Mr5z9aIAycqchpMKiIj4%3D&amp;reserved=0
>> <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftrac.ietf.org%2Ftrac%2Fsec%2Fwiki%2FPQCAgility&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639680751%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Jp7ToDJOJsfpZrIDybklkD1iayyQM4g%2FogDC4VgEoE8%3D&reserved=0>
>> .
>>
>> Regards,
>> Roman
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Kampanakis, Panos <kpanos@amazon.com>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2022 11:08 PM
>> > To: saag@ietf.org
>> > Cc: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>; Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
>> > Subject: RE: [saag] Re: About the "Draft text for a PQ Maintenance WG"
>> >
>> > Hi Roman, Ben,
>> >
>> > Just resurrecting this thread from a few months back.
>> >
>> > Do you know if there will be any updates or progress on this new WG by
>> > IETF- 113?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Panos
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: saag <saag-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Sheehe, Charles J.
>> > (GRC-
>> > LCN0)
>> > Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 8:19 AM
>> > To: saag@ietf.org
>> > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] [saag] [EXTERNAL] Re: About the "Draft text
>> > for a PQ Maintenance WG"
>> >
>> > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do
>> > not click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender
>> > and know the content is safe.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi
>> >
>> > I think the charter looks fine.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > Chuck
>> >
>> > Charles J. Sheehe III
>> > Computer Engineer
>> > Secure Networks, System
>> > Integration and Test Branch (LCN)
>> > Glenn Research Center
>> > 21000 Brookpark Rd
>> > Cleveland, OH 44135
>> > Charles.J.Sheehe@NASA.GOV Email
>> > Charles.J.Sheehe@NSS.SGov.Gov SIPRmail
>> > Office: 216-433-5179
>> >      It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how
>> > the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done
>> them better.
>> >
>> >     The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose
>> > face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who
>> > errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort
>> > without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the
>> > deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends
>> > himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the
>> > triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at
>> > least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with
>> those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
>> > Theodore Roosevelt
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: saag <saag-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw
>> > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 2:23 PM
>> > To: Kampanakis, Panos <kpanos@amazon.com>; Salz, Rich
>> > <rsalz=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>;
>> > saag@ietf.org
>> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ
>> > Maintenance WG"
>> >
>> > Hi!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > We've heard this confusion on using the "maintenance" short hand to
>> > characterize this potential body of work.  The intent was what Panos
>> > described
>> > - a short hand where the "maintenance" was on existing IETF protocol
>> > to allow it to benefit from PQC mechanisms.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The proposed, templated charter language more precisely captures the
>> > intent -- "The [Planned WG Name] working group ([Planned WG Acronym])
>> > is chartered as a WG to analyze, adapt or update IETF protocols,
>> > registries, and associated code points with PQ cryptographic
>> mechanisms."
>> > (https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgit
>> > hub.com
>> <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhub.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639680751%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=U7FU4%2Bg0bapKdyEdbnWElj1k8pOASikrqSq1zh%2Ft6yU%3D&reserved=0>
>> %2Frdanyliw%2Fietf-pq-maintenance%2Fblob%2Fmain%2Fpqm-charter.m
>> > d&amp;data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov
>> <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F40uwe.nsa.gov%2F&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639680751%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=fbB5kjBISa7D9stg%2F%2BjJ8BgKBlp4%2BW%2BHuRZZgDqa4BI%3D&reserved=0>
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>> > <
>> https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.
>> > com%2Frdanyliw%2Fietf-pq-maintenance%2Fblob%2Fmain%2Fpqm-
>> > charter.md&data=04%7C01%7CCharles.J.Sheehe%40nasa.gov
>> <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F40nasa.gov%2F&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639680751%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=omqhdtvGKjzrujW9dH0F2C2oJPXj5gzvbmixu%2BVvTwk%3D&reserved=0>
>> %7Cd092f22f99e
>> > c48fe1a1a08d983764e40%7C7005d45845be48ae8140d43da96dd17b%7C0%7
>> > C0%7C637685366837666194%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4w
>> > LjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdat
>> > a=mJG8R%2FPW8OcWxEdkDGyJ1P0DxvUhWd2XODuf55oYDSM%3D&reserved
>> > =0> ).  I've removed "PQ maintenance" from the header of the templated
>> > charter.  It now reads "PQC Agility WG".  The term didn't appear in
>> > the charter text itself.  However, to eliminate all possible c
>> > onfusion I also the one instance of maintenance by s/protocol
>> maintenance/protocol changes/.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Roman
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Kampanakis, Panos <kpanos@amazon.com>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 12:53 PM
>> > To: Salz, Rich <rsalz=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Roman Danyliw
>> > <rdd@cert.org>; Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>; saag@ietf.org
>> > Subject: RE: [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ Maintenance WG"
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Maybe maintenance is the wrong word, but the point is to have a WG for
>> > orphaned (without a WG) protocols like CURDLE was for Curve25519/448.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: saag <saag-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:saag-bounces@ietf.org> > On
>> > Behalf Of Salz, Rich
>> > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 12:41 PM
>> > To: Ludovic Perret <ludovic.perret@cryptonext-security.com
>> > <mailto:ludovic.perret@cryptonext-security.com> >; Roman Danyliw
>> > <rdd@cert.org <mailto:rdd@cert.org> >; Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu
>> > <mailto:kaduk@mit.edu> >; saag@ietf.org <mailto:saag@ietf.org>
>> > Cc: Kampanakis, Panos <kpanos=40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org
>> > <mailto:kpanos=40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org> >
>> > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ
>> > Maintenance WG"
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do
>> > not click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender
>> > and know the content is safe.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I find the concept of post-quantum *maintenance* very strange.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > saag mailing list
>> > saag@ietf.org
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>> > ietf.org
>> <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fietf.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639680751%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Di9mRiVDvRWeW2QkqP7BGbITf1dks%2Bf6I33tahu3oa0%3D&reserved=0>
>> %2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsaag&amp;data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.
>> > nsa.gov
>> <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnsa.gov%2F&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639680751%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=BvPCxySWH196MT6KsNrb0foGlARNHppunQ6SkBERDjc%3D&reserved=0>
>> %7C654932872ddc4f843f7808da0cc51cae%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff
>> > 33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637836337995913584%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiM
>> > C4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;s
>> > data=TjuCPc2ZfiBT39IBiWwjaalTum%2BdDTf8cdHV%2FQo4pN0%3D&amp;reserved=0
>>
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>>
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