From: John Mattsson <john.mattsson@ericsson.com>
To: Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>, Brian E Carpenter
	<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, Eliot Lear
	<lear@lear.ch>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Thread-Topic: [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards
Thread-Index: AQHbTXQG5xaHV8BW7Eu2UPVui9gV0g==
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2024 15:47:35 +0000
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Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>So, we really need to pick up draft-thomson-gendispatch-no-expiry. The lon=
ger we let this issue drift, the more often we'll have this discussion.

+1

Martin Thomson wrote:
>The archives of no-draft-expiry@ietf.org tell a pretty grim tale of how th=
is institution is incapable of implementing the most trivial change.

There are a lot of people who have mastered using the CIA simple sabotage f=
ield manual
https://www.cia.gov/static/5c875f3ec660e092cf893f60b4a288df/SimpleSabotage.=
pdf

(11) General Interference with Organizations and Production

(a) Organizations and Conferences

(1) Insist on doing everything through "channels." Never permit short-cuts =
to be taken in order to expedite decisions.
(2) Make "speeches." Talk as frequently as possible and at great length. Il=
lustrate your "points" by long anecdotes and accounts of personal experienc=
es. Never hesitate to make a few appropriate "patriotic" comments,
(3) When possible, refer all matters to committees, for "further study and =
consideration." Attempt to make the committees as large as possible - never=
 less than five.
(4) Bring up irrelevant issues as frequently as possible.
(5) Haggle over precise wordings of communications, minutes, resolutions.
(6) Refer back to matters decided upon at the last meeting and attempt to r=
e-open the question of the advisability of that decision,
(7) Advocate "caution." Be "reasonable" and urge your fellow-conferees to b=
e "reasonable" and avoid haste which might result in embarrassments or diff=
iculties later on.
(8) Be worried about the propriety of any decision - raise the question of =
whether such action as is contemplated lies within the jurisdiction of the =
group or whether it might conflict with the policy of some higher echelon.

(12) General Devices for Lowering Morale and Creating Confusion

(a) Give lengthy and incomprehensible explanations when questioned.
(c) Act stupid.
(d) Be as irritable and quarrelsome as possible without getting yourself in=
to trouble.


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<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Brian E Carpenter wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;So, we really need to pick up draft-thomson-gend=
ispatch-no-expiry. The longer we let this issue drift, the more often we'll=
 have this discussion.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+<span lang=3D"SV">1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Martin Thomson wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;The archives of no-draft-expiry@ietf.org tell a =
pretty grim tale of how this institution is incapable of implementing the m=
ost trivial change.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There are a lot of people who have mastered using th=
e CIA simple sabotage field manual<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://www.cia.gov/static/5c875f3ec660e0=
92cf893f60b4a288df/SimpleSabotage.pdf">https://www.cia.gov/static/5c875f3ec=
660e092cf893f60b4a288df/SimpleSabotage.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"SV"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i>(11) General Interference with Organizations and =
Production<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></i></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i>(a) Organizations and Conferences<o:p></o:p></i><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></i></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i>(1) Insist on doing everything through &quot;chan=
nels.&quot; Never permit short-cuts to be taken in order to expedite decisi=
ons.<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i>(2) Make &quot;speeches.&quot; Talk as frequently=
 as possible and at great length. Illustrate your &quot;points&quot; by lon=
g anecdotes and accounts of personal experiences. Never hesitate to make a =
few appropriate &quot;patriotic&quot; comments,<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i>(3) When possible, refer all matters to committee=
s, for &quot;further study and consideration.&quot; Attempt to make the com=
mittees as large as possible - never less than five.<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i>(4) Bring up irrelevant issues as frequently as p=
ossible.<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i>(5) Haggle over precise wordings of communication=
s, minutes, resolutions.<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i>(6) Refer back to matters decided upon at the las=
t meeting and attempt to re-open the question of the advisability of that d=
ecision,<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i>(7) Advocate &quot;caution.&quot; Be &quot;reason=
able&quot; and urge your fellow-conferees to be &quot;reasonable&quot; and =
avoid haste which might result in embarrassments or difficulties later on.<=
o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i>(8) Be worried about the propriety of any decisio=
n - raise the question of whether such action as is contemplated
</i><i><span lang=3D"EN-US">li</span></i><i>es within the jurisdiction of t=
he group or whether it might conflict with the policy of some higher echelo=
n.<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></i></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i>(12) General Devices for Lowering Morale and Crea=
ting Confusion<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></i></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i>(a) Give lengthy and incomprehensible explanation=
s when questioned.<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i>(c) Act stupid.<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i>(d) Be as irritable and quarrelsome as possible w=
ithout getting yourself into trouble.<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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