[saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: RFCs vs Standards
Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> Wed, 11 December 2024 19:54 UTC
Return-Path: <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: saag@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: saag@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D8D7C180B5B for <saag@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:54:01 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.104
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.104 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PXagrHjwzRFz for <saag@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:53:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com (mail-wm1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D58FC18DBAC for <saag@ietf.org>; Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:53:57 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-434a736518eso79878515e9.1 for <saag@ietf.org>; Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:53:57 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1733946835; x=1734551635; darn=ietf.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=vkaMHKVhdbxwiwd0Zn834utydnFsZRIyakGUjVQcSwA=; b=MxSTZSq8rgKli4J80Cevs8dln8Tl0ln0V0AaUGqmlao3BhEq1IjyBXAE1FAxET7Hw/ 69344eD2SRf4vSEiWVHAh5kS1dNQ5fvjsVaq7AmyYXsF8i1ZBDdIoCgzS9Pq7O/v8Rf0 s9XywNsFSWqARJuctyrsinNherVcYhxHk1W/0Zc3OEJHx5DFzWyy3jWeFmptqtjgtkef 3BYevaRrX+VPThNQkJizGwDZGC33Vj3ChCqI2S7WL7tmqlQE8qwnEDxiYu+AudK0dbip xCBotjOi76hH2AniXmCAzy5W/Dfa4jMLdamoqo8aLC3kpYP1IG8cAYXBJSUXel5cyckI e3Xw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1733946835; x=1734551635; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=vkaMHKVhdbxwiwd0Zn834utydnFsZRIyakGUjVQcSwA=; b=iKItc+ZauHC3ckpA/g3mE+OjBsAO4pqIcAp1d+yhr3BD+cZ6Ey6tD7g6AKs07JWk/c lzaJAhVYKxcaIaxXp6w8izfGwPXAV8ZQig21hEVh14BciwtEN4imRBq2JijnGTPvreon AItY/8pUJh6cgrCte+HRymTx0Cw6oXz1ESIuJ6JDLgf/qhovSMu91LMDSxs4SY/4AYtI iNnKRslwP3rd6CA1Ou53PYvgRXbPkGgt4WmVwAtXuOWfH7fn5gN44o2MTmacP58vy1Am Cud9TnwlFfBGXcjPtypHuM4Xbcn+jtfNBeOO6TL1tDFSCbR5bFyb6WKr90dRT1A2nmoS ETVQ==
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXYQ0vt4aAe4+PyJOREnxi4ryRVjwnZqrggQMjlV6bFrpJebFZNRnck44KAKYi+vykq3083@ietf.org
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwqKjIkFyhuUYVCmB0+xw54h2zaJJP8TjjSZMMbCmagslBY6d1K h2LdAk3LakE54ChFoS/6URmbXozXr4mvJCf89ycGz1WTC7f4h6PUVxhZCynhEGRIXNwV9AVMYqw trFMU/ZZsRrGy2C/iCh0BlN9cExo=
X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsFk31Yx+kGL6RuFHN1yXrT0uxWo3jakP0osbvN9bAVJys4/dIEHkmKRKlf/Ui T2Xy+DbJ0lQyN/SenlB2Y/gT1j79pEu0BAwP6kxr7wXXYOVpBgOVVvwbQ8vAyC3kT+H+y
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHCb3NQqbrL5VulfLoKAcgJfbQqzHKLSyVHTm+ZuOfMokYwtWgz9U22RnOM68aVCBHdRMjj/J/R46u7ioYOhJM=
X-Received: by 2002:a5d:6d03:0:b0:385:e4a7:df09 with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-3864cec7063mr4534429f8f.44.1733946835105; Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:53:55 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <BE95E617-C929-43BA-BB40-41E189A8158B@akamai.com> <CACsn0cmWVeFdJ3dzMj5SV4XpJF4rssULtfQ1moeefoq-Evhk=g@mail.gmail.com> <CAGL5yWb=tLvMOYFKT3ffVbcy7BAD=i4B0VHEUdkvwRvZ3X3Bsw@mail.gmail.com> <m2mshh4v8l.wl-randy@psg.com> <CABcZeBMjxNbBMYU2p3_a8-5VCExgmY-7XLof7die05YOEX-38A@mail.gmail.com> <70419651-6443-4393-9ca1-8a1c98a68db0@cs.tcd.ie> <CABcZeBNtBRxi5zSf9OvUip2AtyVD6Wt9+kQESuUzo-=Kur9+ZQ@mail.gmail.com> <fac981d9-2fe9-4a84-8af1-845acd72af58@cs.tcd.ie> <14124.1733073164@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <d52ee080-814b-46fd-9e0f-41349941eeac@cs.tcd.ie> <GVXPR07MB9678DF2C14EA44B28C3DA372893D2@GVXPR07MB9678.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <F304B6BA-6969-4C62-A217-88E76F82CDC2@tzi.org> <C74E3E9D-E892-48B4-87BE-CD634081AA23@akamai.com> <030FD3D1-8BC9-4C92-84EE-9CD18F451E73@tzi.org> <5249aa71-52c2-4f20-b2ae-62eaf75c82b7@lear.ch> <CABcZeBPB=9+zT4HM+NnakNDsC_6wZkw25CZTWBD2kqZcW+98qA@mail.gmail.com> <0970f0e4-cc87-41a6-8c5d-82da8c77eb28@lear.ch> <48176389-4F35-46A6-A86A-E736D2513CA0@tzi.org> <6b407cff-d5f1-4f11-b4af-6d575e94df85@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <6b407cff-d5f1-4f11-b4af-6d575e94df85@gmail.com>
From: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:53:43 -0800
Message-ID: <CACsn0c=kNWCgSxgokSZni9Fj5n1iZQQrBr7qM8+wvCB=DxjGoA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-ID-Hash: ICGKTCXPKAX7OPPZEM2FBXW5ER37UB4F
X-Message-ID-Hash: ICGKTCXPKAX7OPPZEM2FBXW5ER37UB4F
X-MailFrom: watsonbladd@gmail.com
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-saag.ietf.org-0; header-match-saag.ietf.org-1; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: "rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org" <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, IETF SAAG <saag@ietf.org>
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
Subject: [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: RFCs vs Standards
List-Id: Security Area Advisory Group <saag.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/saag/UJ3bQK1NxwKsN39GfrNWgE0naQE>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/saag>
List-Help: <mailto:saag-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:saag-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:saag@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:saag-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:saag-leave@ietf.org>
On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 11:48 AM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 12-Dec-24 02:27, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > On 2024-12-11, at 13:56, Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote: > >> > >> For what it's worth, I have far less of a problem with IANA assignments to drafts than I do with drafts not being considered working documents. > > > > I believe the magical solution to all this is: > > > > Make no changes. > > > > The way things are arranged here kind of works, even if ugly in come corners, and nobody has yet come up with a proposed change that would actually improve the outcome. > > I believe that's correct (and I suspect that Mike StJohns's description is pretty much accurate) but the fact remains that "the way things are arranged here" is *different* from what is described in our founding process document. And it's just weird that we don't update that document to formally permit what we actually do. I think this is built around a misunderstanding of early assignment. Or maybe I misunderstand. Early assignment happens when changes to the wireformat would be deeply unlucky, but the text may still be developed. And so having the pointer to an I-D that is going through the process to become an RFC is fine. > > See https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rfc-interest/XJk2nBsWS08hth8FBl0eaQOe7m8/ > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > saag mailing list -- saag@ietf.org > To unsubscribe send an email to saag-leave@ietf.org -- Astra mortemque praestare gradatim
- [saag] FW: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft… Simon Josefsson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Simon Josefsson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Tero Kivinen
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Damien Miller
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Simon Josefsson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Tero Kivinen
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Michael Richardson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Stephen Farrell
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Peter Gutmann
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Michael Richardson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Peter Gutmann
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Michael Richardson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Watson Ladd
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… D. J. Bernstein
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Watson Ladd
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Watson Ladd
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… D. J. Bernstein
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Randy Bush
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Michael Jones
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Randy Bush
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Alan DeKok
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… D. J. Bernstein
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Damien Miller
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Stephen Farrell
- [saag] Side-comment: SSH issues (was: New Version… Peter Gutmann
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Stephen Farrell
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Simon Josefsson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Simon Josefsson
- [saag] RFCs vs Standards Michael Richardson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… D. J. Bernstein
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: RFCs vs Standards Stephen Farrell
- [saag] Re: RFCs vs Standards John Mattsson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Peter Gutmann
- [saag] Re: RFCs vs Standards Carsten Bormann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: RFCs vs Standards Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Carsten Bormann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Tim Bray
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards StJohns, Michael
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Brian E Carpenter
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: RFCs vs Standards Brian E Carpenter
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Carsten Bormann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Peter Gutmann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Joel Halpern
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Behcet Sarikaya
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: RFCs vs Standards Brian E Carpenter
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Martin Thomson
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Michael Richardson
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Alan DeKok
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Carsten Bormann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: RFCs vs Standards Watson Ladd
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Simon Josefsson
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards S Moonesamy
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Joel Halpern
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards John Mattsson
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Randy Bush
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Carsten Bormann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Randy Bush
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Carsten Bormann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: Re: Re: RFCs vs Standa… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: Re: Re: RFCs vs Standa… Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: Re: Re: RFCs vs Standa… Tero Kivinen
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RFCs vs St… touch@strayalpha.com
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: Re: Re: RFCs vs Standa… Phillip Hallam-Baker