[saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards
Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> Wed, 11 December 2024 12:56 UTC
Return-Path: <lear@lear.ch>
X-Original-To: saag@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: saag@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E450C151556; Wed, 11 Dec 2024 04:56:49 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.895
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=lear.ch
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WMsOMKogCk0K; Wed, 11 Dec 2024 04:56:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: from upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (upstairs.ofcourseimright.com [IPv6:2a00:bd80:aa::2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EED56C14F6F2; Wed, 11 Dec 2024 04:56:40 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=lear.ch; s=upstairs; t=1733921768; bh=FK3ex77Xhgq5IQ13MKIGvQaAi2zQfCvcROu5XqktuIc=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=JxNPIljsLiR0QLBp0uK/ivkBnQVww5bgU/qCowQLdQxnzNjRInb/qvhEBMoP0CKcJ NzQP2SoxMsPw1Chif3tdM1A24K9hB+033JjVG1c8cWylYhaMgwxPCciCvc7EgN/g0/ b1J2JDZeMfITWKI/hW3PBIMq4aAzVr6T2y/HCBp4=
Received: from [IPV6:2a02:1210:2c9b:e200:4154:e9f:ef93:325e] (0.1.2.1.2.0.a.2.dynamic.cust.swisscom.net [IPv6:2a02:1210:2c9b:e200:4154:e9f:ef93:325e] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by upstairs.ofcourseimright.com (8.18.1/8.18.1/Debian-2) with ESMTPSA id 4BBCu7773117208 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 11 Dec 2024 13:56:08 +0100
Message-ID: <0970f0e4-cc87-41a6-8c5d-82da8c77eb28@lear.ch>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 13:56:07 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
References: <BE95E617-C929-43BA-BB40-41E189A8158B@akamai.com> <3029EB03-6E7A-47CB-9682-F511CB51EE17@akamai.com> <10065.1732826193@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <CACsn0cmWVeFdJ3dzMj5SV4XpJF4rssULtfQ1moeefoq-Evhk=g@mail.gmail.com> <CAGL5yWb=tLvMOYFKT3ffVbcy7BAD=i4B0VHEUdkvwRvZ3X3Bsw@mail.gmail.com> <m2mshh4v8l.wl-randy@psg.com> <CABcZeBMjxNbBMYU2p3_a8-5VCExgmY-7XLof7die05YOEX-38A@mail.gmail.com> <70419651-6443-4393-9ca1-8a1c98a68db0@cs.tcd.ie> <CABcZeBNtBRxi5zSf9OvUip2AtyVD6Wt9+kQESuUzo-=Kur9+ZQ@mail.gmail.com> <fac981d9-2fe9-4a84-8af1-845acd72af58@cs.tcd.ie> <14124.1733073164@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <d52ee080-814b-46fd-9e0f-41349941eeac@cs.tcd.ie> <GVXPR07MB9678DF2C14EA44B28C3DA372893D2@GVXPR07MB9678.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <F304B6BA-6969-4C62-A217-88E76F82CDC2@tzi.org> <C74E3E9D-E892-48B4-87BE-CD634081AA23@akamai.com> <030FD3D1-8BC9-4C92-84EE-9CD18F451E73@tzi.org> <5249aa71-52c2-4f20-b2ae-62eaf75c82b7@lear.ch> <CABcZeBPB=9+zT4HM+NnakNDsC_6wZkw25CZTWBD2kqZcW+98qA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Language: en-US
From: Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch>
Autocrypt: addr=lear@lear.ch; keydata= xsBNBFMe1UQBCADdYOS5APDpIpF2ohAxB+nxg1GpAYr8iKwGIb86Wp9NkK5+QwbW9H035clT lpVLciExtN8E3MCTPOIm7aITPlruixAVwlBY3g7U9eRppSw9O2H/7bie2GOnYxqmsw4v1yNZ 9NcMLlD8raY0UcQ5r698c8JD4xUTLqybZXaK2sPeJkxzT+IwupRSQ+vXEvFFGhERQ88zo5Ca Sa1Gw/Rv54oH0Dq2XYkO41rhxQ60BKZLZuQK1d9+1y3I+An3AJeD3AA31fJZD3H8YRKOBgqe ILPILbw1mM7gCtCjfvFCt6AFCwEsjITGx55ceoQ+t5B5XGYJEppMWsIFrwZsfbL+gP31ABEB AAHNGUVsaW90IExlYXIgPGxlYXJAbGVhci5jaD7CwI4EEwECADgCGwMCHgECF4AWIQSY0L2Q Rh2wkqeyYR2HtmtG2dJ6MwUCWxJwMwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQAKCRCHtmtG2dJ6M8KI B/46pFrJX+4Ockl2fHR303ais9Lyx8jv6mXKKOr8WR0UYcJ0syQrhaaZNG1VV98tYQHHK9F5 y7hH4YCsrr3odZ6zoavnx5X1X/2xw8y732f/irVoOOkYLid9IGPxa2e2nYXCZpde5/yvv3we XVE4mG4dEAD5T8iKS4Hz/3fKGJQ15o79Jv92HgC7RpCt0WaiQ0b6acP3PuwjDJzJzLFZzb7j IiB3izxQESSWE1GNRmoAK/k0gW6kmx1/87tQENrK+3Nn4CJSFQWF6entLnY7UeVm95wbMQkJ evwddDWUO2huDbmZnmxgKXGzSSpuNq7n8ICAOlbt0HfdJAZQfy25bwvezsBNBFMe1UQBCAC0 WV7Ydbv95xYGPhthTdChBIpPtl7JPCV/c6/3iEmvjpfGuFNaK4Macj9le20EA5A1BH7PgLGo HOiPM65NysRpZ96RRVX3TNfLmhGMFr5hPOGNdq+xcGHVutmwPV9U7bKeUNRiPFx3YdEkExdd qV2E8FltT0x2FSKe2xszPPHB6gVtMckX5buI9p1K3fbVhXdvEkcYY/jB0JEJGyhS5aEbct5c HUvDAkT81/YFK5Jfg8RRwu1q1t1YuIJSOWAZQ9J9oUsg6D9RpClU+tIFBoe3iTp1AUfJcypu cGKgLYKtpu/aygcpQONHYkYW5003mPsrajFhReVF5veycMbHs4u5ABEBAAHCwF8EGAECAAkF AlMe1UQCGwwACgkQh7ZrRtnSejOSuQgA27p2rYB7Kh20dym6V8c62pWpBHHTgxr/32zevxHS iXl6xvUCg5T8WUwfUk8OvgDcBErK/blDAMXQzSg3sp450JhR8RnXHXF5Zz2T04X7HnlIVJGw f2CjnwyEAJCqMzaCmI+g3Imvg/8L4nyBFvhlFHDv+kIvMiujyycjPAu7xxKplBs1/IEwmDoA MjneFmawvfeQnwdMhSKK8PjKSuzGU5uUmxj3GBfRqvTM0qpmhMPFOmDhJSmH55HLAky2Mlmq JYXJPt/9EfSEhFiua1M6gLiuNEuPkp+8jcnHQqKr0IeHt8UqcwLt2mGfIyl0FVdF9hvWPjNR zGbgqoT1Di03RQ==
In-Reply-To: <CABcZeBPB=9+zT4HM+NnakNDsC_6wZkw25CZTWBD2kqZcW+98qA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha256"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------WTwJEQwO86K6Cmpp2caDxGXW"
Message-ID-Hash: BRZN3XKBDO5MPKF2BRIX34ZREA65DTJW
X-Message-ID-Hash: BRZN3XKBDO5MPKF2BRIX34ZREA65DTJW
X-MailFrom: lear@lear.ch
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-saag.ietf.org-0; header-match-saag.ietf.org-1; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: John Mattsson <john.mattsson=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org" <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, Paul Wouters <paul.wouters=40aiven.io@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF SAAG <saag@ietf.org>
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
Subject: [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards
List-Id: Security Area Advisory Group <saag.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/saag/X0jkOXTvIr43PJ8qkhOULOeKOEI>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/saag>
List-Help: <mailto:saag-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:saag-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:saag@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:saag-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:saag-leave@ietf.org>
Eric, On 11.12.2024 13:26, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 12:47 PM Eliot Lear <lear@lear.ch> wrote: > > And this is where we run into problems, because the moment you > change that boiler plate, you will devalue the RFC series and > create support and interoperability problems as people end up > implementing different versions of a specification. And to be > clear, IANA is the LEAST of our problems. The IETF needs a way to > have not-ready-for-prime-time DRAFT work without fear ofcreating a > mess. > > I think this assumes facts not in evidence. If you are asking for evidence that we have trained the industry to believe that drafts are temporary, you should work in or near a commercial organization who answers RFPs. I've seen my share, and they rarely include internet-drafts. If you are asking for evidence that this sort of training would break down, that would be asking for evidence of an event that has not yet occurred because the boiler plate has largely stated the draft nature of drafts from the beginning. I reiterate: a draft can be stable where a specification is not. We make that distinction of whether a specification is stable through our publication process. For what it's worth, I have far less of a problem with IANA assignments to drafts than I do with drafts not being considered working documents. And again, the hint is in the name: draft. Eliot
- [saag] FW: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft… Simon Josefsson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Simon Josefsson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Tero Kivinen
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Damien Miller
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Simon Josefsson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Tero Kivinen
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Michael Richardson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Stephen Farrell
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Peter Gutmann
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Michael Richardson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Peter Gutmann
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Michael Richardson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Watson Ladd
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… D. J. Bernstein
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Watson Ladd
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Watson Ladd
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… D. J. Bernstein
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Randy Bush
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Michael Jones
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Randy Bush
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Alan DeKok
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… D. J. Bernstein
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Damien Miller
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Stephen Farrell
- [saag] Side-comment: SSH issues (was: New Version… Peter Gutmann
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Stephen Farrell
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Simon Josefsson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Simon Josefsson
- [saag] RFCs vs Standards Michael Richardson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… D. J. Bernstein
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: RFCs vs Standards Stephen Farrell
- [saag] Re: RFCs vs Standards John Mattsson
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Peter Gutmann
- [saag] Re: RFCs vs Standards Carsten Bormann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: RFCs vs Standards Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Carsten Bormann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Tim Bray
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards StJohns, Michael
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Brian E Carpenter
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Paul Wouters
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: RFCs vs Standards Brian E Carpenter
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Carsten Bormann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Peter Gutmann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Joel Halpern
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Behcet Sarikaya
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: RFCs vs Standards Brian E Carpenter
- [saag] Re: New Version Notification for draft-rsa… Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Martin Thomson
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Michael Richardson
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Alan DeKok
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Carsten Bormann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Salz, Rich
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: RFCs vs Standards Watson Ladd
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Simon Josefsson
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards S Moonesamy
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Eliot Lear
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Joel Halpern
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards John Mattsson
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Randy Bush
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Carsten Bormann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Randy Bush
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: RFCs vs Standards Carsten Bormann
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: Re: Re: RFCs vs Standa… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: Re: Re: RFCs vs Standa… Eric Rescorla
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: Re: Re: RFCs vs Standa… Tero Kivinen
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RFCs vs St… touch@strayalpha.com
- [saag] Re: [rfc-i] Re: Re: Re: Re: RFCs vs Standa… Phillip Hallam-Baker