[saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards

"StJohns, Michael" <msj@nthpermutation.com> Tue, 10 December 2024 23:58 UTC

Return-Path: <msj@nthpermutation.com>
X-Original-To: saag@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: saag@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5999EC16943A for <saag@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 10 Dec 2024 15:58:27 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.906
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nthpermutation-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d2zcCjQRkg1t for <saag@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 10 Dec 2024 15:58:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-ed1-x52b.google.com (mail-ed1-x52b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6059C169412 for <saag@ietf.org>; Tue, 10 Dec 2024 15:58:26 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-ed1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5d34030ebb2so8385750a12.1 for <saag@ietf.org>; Tue, 10 Dec 2024 15:58:26 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nthpermutation-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1733875105; x=1734479905; darn=ietf.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=g9ZsNv8X6RKaeNKFJIPVFU95Kda6PXzph7OWFMF0+Sc=; b=h8wNHMRotfc7orD3fNlS+3INIaGfkWAiEiQrc1/6O2hfJwOi1jnRVt06r+hpiMcnun fx7LiiyWNVZkPW5MMW0dtJc3LE86TXOxGXCe5dQ09puUpZS6uIrwq/kqoYuWbLdeiHCT zNX3/uUji5IFSkBdnQLZFy1CokHZSfnLuw760wM2ERte8mUuEChKOSdijQepql/TEfQB IYhmpvRCa6Z8OrsVLSyeOqrJ02LWwHBq/CZYUJ/wQM1pHp3sisA8i2Yir4LO6TyuRfTn GY2DCK9Ry7WF0NkHoltklBcITCw/bB2T8qS0YJOXgOFcv0OxoXh8svz7+hFH6Va5aQH1 FcvQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1733875105; x=1734479905; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=g9ZsNv8X6RKaeNKFJIPVFU95Kda6PXzph7OWFMF0+Sc=; b=ZvtXilVV05VPu4IbZm9o7oxgF8mKf7PZYdtnHFSN6yVApQE9b6e9Z4Rn6UuHalJGIc zqeUaDbfFvaci+5IrYWTB4C3noXuIP5lUbZ/j03/pxZl6jxgbV2L6RsOZy8r8tZfYejQ +e1n1vuvd7sbi7zF+qok1XaDDA189wyFE3c+YVG84cJ3u+9ZyONnFuqmwhdWRfIDLfWC 4u40p1YqwPDhUUVXi7LjK9fLsyBQzuQCcNcmK8hPlQIIukHVlnShwV5yYBpMFqaxNqAo NNFCyYUXyfg4QpyWX7LQfH+ad7PT398vOt0GkhF+Zi7vQsLvrjT0E5J1vm6Gn0WGt8SZ QtjA==
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCW7o3f6uXh37nwnC2XaZSwOS26PD8e3t31hMLPk9alWRn8raLxjfKcihpimbCak9na0Q/1f@ietf.org
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yxp2y6klJ0ujn58pMvcQ9AV6rSwkCziBaxMllRx6pSPs3yy/49j CguEk4BAYlKeBPzIjRp0Ksy2kMAc0DpgQtZyH8setoK/Y3p1KPwPu2BM9pWBVOGZ57Y77joeldG lBJglsAI8s7ZqRWrkzYDqbkfh5yKlJ/aB/NG0/A==
X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvZnr7tj62i60p80VoroZZydg1oZfWCdOWLrWSRh3HkNCmRWG6Japj9DEKK2k/ oru1evnLRf6xOHT+vV/HiXCbRzK/CuRDwHPJMGrf2i3bZHGWQfg6h1tt1McGxWa6ubb87fg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHZJV8FeY6aaWfBc6trDZ+4558wB24Ogmw/tOGR+fgESAtUflukM9DVeq55GZI5qa0c+NFM5A6p4os+2XboaQI=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1e90:b0:5d0:81dc:f20e with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5d4330abb13mr575771a12.17.1733875104062; Tue, 10 Dec 2024 15:58:24 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <BE95E617-C929-43BA-BB40-41E189A8158B@akamai.com> <SY8P300MB0711C796AB6095C788556516EE292@SY8P300MB0711.AUSP300.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> <15450.1732763286@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <3029EB03-6E7A-47CB-9682-F511CB51EE17@akamai.com> <10065.1732826193@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <CACsn0cmWVeFdJ3dzMj5SV4XpJF4rssULtfQ1moeefoq-Evhk=g@mail.gmail.com> <CAGL5yWb=tLvMOYFKT3ffVbcy7BAD=i4B0VHEUdkvwRvZ3X3Bsw@mail.gmail.com> <m2mshh4v8l.wl-randy@psg.com> <CABcZeBMjxNbBMYU2p3_a8-5VCExgmY-7XLof7die05YOEX-38A@mail.gmail.com> <70419651-6443-4393-9ca1-8a1c98a68db0@cs.tcd.ie> <CABcZeBNtBRxi5zSf9OvUip2AtyVD6Wt9+kQESuUzo-=Kur9+ZQ@mail.gmail.com> <fac981d9-2fe9-4a84-8af1-845acd72af58@cs.tcd.ie> <14124.1733073164@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <d52ee080-814b-46fd-9e0f-41349941eeac@cs.tcd.ie> <GVXPR07MB9678DF2C14EA44B28C3DA372893D2@GVXPR07MB9678.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <F304B6BA-6969-4C62-A217-88E76F82CDC2@tzi.org> <C74E3E9D-E892-48B4-87BE-CD634081AA23@akamai.com> <030FD3D1-8BC9-4C92-84EE-9CD18F451E73@tzi.org> <5249aa71-52c2-4f20-b2ae-62eaf75c82b7@lear.ch> <F54D57D6-F1DF-43A5-A437-7CD2AA4B181A@akamai.com> <CAHBU6isP3cyMHdZ0u3DOS3F+WXuJzXm9fpzJrBZKgpiojb1r7Q@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAHBU6isP3cyMHdZ0u3DOS3F+WXuJzXm9fpzJrBZKgpiojb1r7Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: "StJohns, Michael" <msj@nthpermutation.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 17:58:13 -0600
Message-ID: <CANeU+ZA_YvPLmOBRf1mgYMsv5guEeR8L-YmrAeMp0oQq6Pz7Ww@mail.gmail.com>
To: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a9b5270628f34145"
Message-ID-Hash: 2CXQEF2UNWTDKOPJGDHM4GOX64TH24XL
X-Message-ID-Hash: 2CXQEF2UNWTDKOPJGDHM4GOX64TH24XL
X-MailFrom: msj@nthpermutation.com
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-saag.ietf.org-0; header-match-saag.ietf.org-1; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, John Mattsson <john.mattsson=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, RFC Interest <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, Paul Wouters <paul.wouters=40aiven.io@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF SAAG <saag@ietf.org>
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
Subject: [saag] Re: [rfc-i] RFCs vs Standards
List-Id: Security Area Advisory Group <saag.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/saag/b4eZx7tYAAe8YjAr_hfOYWl-2iY>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/saag>
List-Help: <mailto:saag-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:saag-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:saag@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:saag-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:saag-leave@ietf.org>

I hate that maneuver.  Instead, let’s just use the text of the ID at the
time of request with a change in the boiler plate specific to the IANA
specification required model.   Have the IANA - as it already seems to do -
act as a document repository for the stable reference associated with the
code point.  To be clear, the document in the IANA repo is not an ID even
if it shares text with one.

That makes it clear exactly what the code point applies to, without begging
the question of whether an ID is a citeable stable document.

Mike

On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 18:43 Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> wrote:

> I like that maneuver.
>
> On Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 3:41 PM Salz, Rich <rsalz=
> 40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
>> And this is where we run into problems, because the moment you change
>> that boiler plate, you will devalue the RFC series
>>
>> I don’t know about that. The general population seems unable to tell the
>> difference among the various RFC streams, as well as drafts and not.
>>
>> But if necessary, one possible fix is this:
>>
>> It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference material **for
>> other than IETF purposes** or to cite them other than as "work in
>> progress."
>> _______________________________________________
>> saag mailing list -- saag@ietf.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to saag-leave@ietf.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> saag mailing list -- saag@ietf.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to saag-leave@ietf.org
>