Re: [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ Maintenance WG"

Hi Panos,

Yes, I agree that the drafts do all belong to those respective working groups. To clarify, I only meant to suggest that these drafts be added to the list of PQ work in IETF at https://trac.ietf.org/trac/sec/wiki/PQCAgility, not that these become work items for the PQ WG.

Rebecca

From: saag <saag-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Kampanakis, Panos
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2022 11:47 PM
To: Mike Prorock <mprorock@mesur.io>; Rebecca Guthrie <rmguthr=40uwe.nsa.gov@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: saag@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ Maintenance WG"

Hi Mike, Rebecca,

As much I would like for this new WG to be formed, I am of the opinion that if these two work items have a good existing WG, they should be worked there.

To me, it seems that draft-guthrie-ipsecme-ikev2-hybrid-auth belongs to IPSECME, draft-becker-guthrie-cert-binding-for-multi-auth belongs to LAMPS, draft-becker-guthrie-noncomposite-hybrid-auth<https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-becker-guthrie-noncomposite-hybrid-auth&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639524961%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=pf5tYMyCs2tvlrq1%2FTgle1HwETftYMBNl1EYUVhKxWU%3D&reserved=0>  belongs to TLS or LAMPS, draft-uni-qsckeys-00<https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fid%2Fdraft-uni-qsckeys-00.html&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639524961%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=2OKMHoYrceU%2BBbIOMcn6jJeSVPFKdE5IS%2F5%2F1IYrsV0%3D&reserved=0> belongs to LAMPS and draft-prorock-cose-post-quantum-signatures belongs to COSE. It is always better to bring drafts to their corresponding areas of expertise if it exists as that would guarantee the quality of a draft.

Personally, I think the new PQ WG should focus on areas whose WGs have concluded and are currently orphan from an IETF WG.

Rgs,
Panos

From: saag <saag-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:saag-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Mike Prorock
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2022 9:08 AM
To: Rebecca Guthrie <rmguthr=40uwe.nsa.gov@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:rmguthr=40uwe.nsa.gov@dmarc.ietf.org>>
Cc: saag@ietf.org<mailto:saag@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ Maintenance WG"

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and know the content is safe.

Email crossed - yes, thank you Rebecca - we are actively working on the PQC Signature side of things with some great support from a variety of parties.  Getting a defined list as this is an evolving space would be great.

Mike Prorock
CTO, Founder
https://mesur.io/<https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmesur.io%2F&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639680751%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=r1CFZbUj7O%2BNo6JVlgbYcE77PdxFFTUq4G4FVkt9thg%3D&reserved=0>

On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 7:19 AM Rebecca Guthrie <rmguthr=40uwe.nsa.gov@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:40uwe.nsa.gov@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
Hi Roman,

Thank you for keeping track of the PQ work in IETF (and thanks to Panos for reviving this topic)! Is the PQ activity list something that others are able to update? There is a draft, JSON Encoding for PQ Signatures (draft-prorock-cose-post-quantum-signatures-00), and another newly-uploaded draft, draft-guthrie-ipsecme-ikev2-hybrid-auth, that can be added to the list.

Also- though it is still being worked out which protocols are in the scope of the proposed PQ Agility WG charter, could it be helpful to establish a separate mail-list, as a place to begin these conversations?

Rebecca

-----Original Message-----
From: saag <saag-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:saag-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2022 8:02 AM
To: Kampanakis, Panos <kpanos@amazon.com<mailto:kpanos@amazon.com>>; saag@ietf.org<mailto:saag@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ Maintenance WG"

Hi Panos!

No updates.  While there is concrete charter text describing the mechanics of how such a hypothetical WG would operate, it doesn't describe what protocols would be in scope for the initial body of work.  Progress is blocked pending identification of such initial milestones (i.e., what protocols need a PQC re-design but don't have an existing WG to address it).

Feedback continues to be welcome on this list (saag@ietf).  I've been trying to keep a running summary of the PQC work in the IETF at https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftrac.ietf.org%2Ftrac%2Fsec%2Fwiki%2FPQCAgility&amp;data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C654932872ddc4f843f7808da0cc51cae%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637836337995913584%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=AoUcD0vWmShCxinFoJRzqq8Mr5z9aIAycqchpMKiIj4%3D&amp;reserved=0<https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftrac.ietf.org%2Ftrac%2Fsec%2Fwiki%2FPQCAgility&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639680751%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Jp7ToDJOJsfpZrIDybklkD1iayyQM4g%2FogDC4VgEoE8%3D&reserved=0>.

Regards,
Roman

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kampanakis, Panos <kpanos@amazon.com<mailto:kpanos@amazon.com>>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2022 11:08 PM
> To: saag@ietf.org<mailto:saag@ietf.org>
> Cc: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org<mailto:rdd@cert.org>>; Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu<mailto:kaduk@mit.edu>>
> Subject: RE: [saag] Re: About the "Draft text for a PQ Maintenance WG"
>
> Hi Roman, Ben,
>
> Just resurrecting this thread from a few months back.
>
> Do you know if there will be any updates or progress on this new WG by
> IETF- 113?
>
> Thanks,
> Panos
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: saag <saag-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:saag-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Sheehe, Charles J.
> (GRC-
> LCN0)
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 8:19 AM
> To: saag@ietf.org<mailto:saag@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] [saag] [EXTERNAL] Re: About the "Draft text
> for a PQ Maintenance WG"
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do
> not click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender
> and know the content is safe.
>
>
>
> Hi
>
> I think the charter looks fine.
>
> Thanks
> Chuck
>
> Charles J. Sheehe III
> Computer Engineer
> Secure Networks, System
> Integration and Test Branch (LCN)
> Glenn Research Center
> 21000 Brookpark Rd
> Cleveland, OH 44135
> Charles.J.Sheehe@NASA.GOV<mailto:Charles.J.Sheehe@NASA.GOV> Email
> Charles.J.Sheehe@NSS.SGov.Gov<mailto:Charles.J.Sheehe@NSS.SGov.Gov> SIPRmail
> Office: 216-433-5179
>      It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how
> the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.
>
>     The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose
> face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who
> errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort
> without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the
> deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends
> himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the
> triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at
> least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
> Theodore Roosevelt
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: saag <saag-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:saag-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw
> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 2:23 PM
> To: Kampanakis, Panos <kpanos@amazon.com<mailto:kpanos@amazon.com>>; Salz, Rich
> <rsalz=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>; Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu<mailto:kaduk@mit.edu>>;
> saag@ietf.org<mailto:saag@ietf.org>
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ
> Maintenance WG"
>
> Hi!
>
>
>
> We've heard this confusion on using the "maintenance" short hand to
> characterize this potential body of work.  The intent was what Panos
> described
> - a short hand where the "maintenance" was on existing IETF protocol
> to allow it to benefit from PQC mechanisms.
>
>
>
> The proposed, templated charter language more precisely captures the
> intent -- "The [Planned WG Name] working group ([Planned WG Acronym])
> is chartered as a WG to analyze, adapt or update IETF protocols,
> registries, and associated code points with PQ cryptographic mechanisms."
> (https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgit
> hub.com<https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhub.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639680751%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=U7FU4%2Bg0bapKdyEdbnWElj1k8pOASikrqSq1zh%2Ft6yU%3D&reserved=0>%2Frdanyliw%2Fietf-pq-maintenance%2Fblob%2Fmain%2Fpqm-charter.m
> d&amp;data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov<https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F40uwe.nsa.gov%2F&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639680751%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=fbB5kjBISa7D9stg%2F%2BjJ8BgKBlp4%2BW%2BHuRZZgDqa4BI%3D&reserved=0>%7C654932872ddc4f843f7808da0
> cc51cae%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C63783633799591358
> 4%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6
> Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=qmZgx%2BJWwcrKtqD7fwcL2lK43UQa
> 5K0dPkZYl0n2ZGo%3D&amp;reserved=0
> <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.
> com%2Frdanyliw%2Fietf-pq-maintenance%2Fblob%2Fmain%2Fpqm-
> charter.md&data=04%7C01%7CCharles.J.Sheehe%40nasa.gov<https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F40nasa.gov%2F&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639680751%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=omqhdtvGKjzrujW9dH0F2C2oJPXj5gzvbmixu%2BVvTwk%3D&reserved=0>%7Cd092f22f99e
> c48fe1a1a08d983764e40%7C7005d45845be48ae8140d43da96dd17b%7C0%7
> C0%7C637685366837666194%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4w
> LjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdat
> a=mJG8R%2FPW8OcWxEdkDGyJ1P0DxvUhWd2XODuf55oYDSM%3D&reserved
> =0> ).  I've removed "PQ maintenance" from the header of the templated
> charter.  It now reads "PQC Agility WG".  The term didn't appear in
> the charter text itself.  However, to eliminate all possible c
> onfusion I also the one instance of maintenance by s/protocol maintenance/protocol changes/.
>
>
>
> Roman
>
>
>
> From: Kampanakis, Panos <kpanos@amazon.com<mailto:kpanos@amazon.com>>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 12:53 PM
> To: Salz, Rich <rsalz=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>; Roman Danyliw
> <rdd@cert.org<mailto:rdd@cert.org>>; Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu<mailto:kaduk@mit.edu>>; saag@ietf.org<mailto:saag@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ Maintenance WG"
>
>
>
> Maybe maintenance is the wrong word, but the point is to have a WG for
> orphaned (without a WG) protocols like CURDLE was for Curve25519/448.
>
>
>
> From: saag <saag-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:saag-bounces@ietf.org> <mailto:saag-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:saag-bounces@ietf.org>> > On
> Behalf Of Salz, Rich
> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 12:41 PM
> To: Ludovic Perret <ludovic.perret@cryptonext-security.com<mailto:ludovic.perret@cryptonext-security.com>
> <mailto:ludovic.perret@cryptonext-security.com<mailto:ludovic.perret@cryptonext-security.com>> >; Roman Danyliw
> <rdd@cert.org<mailto:rdd@cert.org> <mailto:rdd@cert.org<mailto:rdd@cert.org>> >; Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu<mailto:kaduk@mit.edu>
> <mailto:kaduk@mit.edu<mailto:kaduk@mit.edu>> >; saag@ietf.org<mailto:saag@ietf.org> <mailto:saag@ietf.org<mailto:saag@ietf.org>>
> Cc: Kampanakis, Panos <kpanos=40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> <mailto:kpanos<mailto:kpanos>=40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:40amazon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> >
> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ
> Maintenance WG"
>
>
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do
> not click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender
> and know the content is safe.
>
>
>
> I find the concept of post-quantum *maintenance* very strange.
>
>
>
>
>
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> 33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637836337995913584%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiM
> C4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;s
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