Re: [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ Maintenance WG"

[Mike Prorock <[e-mail]>]

+1 Rebecca - add to list on the wiki
Mailing list on PQC could be helpful as there are topics that cross WGs.

Panos,
I do think there are items that will arise (or that are arising) that might
ot cleanly fit into one of the existing WGs which I believe you
were referring to and finding a home and an approach will likely be needed.

Mike Prorock
CTO, Founder
https://mesur.io/



On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 6:05 PM Rebecca Guthrie <rmguthr=
[e-mail]> wrote:

> Hi Panos,
>
>
>
> Yes, I agree that the drafts do all belong to those respective working
> groups. To clarify, I only meant to suggest that these drafts be added to
> the list of PQ work in IETF at
> https://trac.ietf.org/trac/sec/wiki/PQCAgility, not that these become
> work items for the PQ WG.
>
>
>
> Rebecca
>
>
>
> *From:* saag <[e-mail]> *On Behalf Of * Kampanakis, Panos
> *Sent:* Friday, March 25, 2022 11:47 PM
> *To:* Mike Prorock <[e-mail]>; Rebecca Guthrie <rmguthr=
> [e-mail]>
> *Cc:* [e-mail]
> *Subject:* Re: [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ Maintenance WG"
>
>
>
> Hi Mike, Rebecca,
>
>
>
> As much I would like for this new WG to be formed, I am of the opinion
> that if these two work items have a good existing WG, they should be worked
> there.
>
>
>
> To me, it seems that draft-guthrie-ipsecme-ikev2-hybrid-auth belongs to
> IPSECME, draft-becker-guthrie-cert-binding-for-multi-auth belongs to
> LAMPS, draft-becker-guthrie-noncomposite-hybrid-auth
> <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-becker-guthrie-noncomposite-hybrid-auth&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639524961%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=pf5tYMyCs2tvlrq1%2FTgle1HwETftYMBNl1EYUVhKxWU%3D&reserved=0>
>  belongs to TLS or LAMPS, draft-uni-qsckeys-00
> <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fid%2Fdraft-uni-qsckeys-00.html&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639524961%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=2OKMHoYrceU%2BBbIOMcn6jJeSVPFKdE5IS%2F5%2F1IYrsV0%3D&reserved=0>
> belongs to LAMPS and draft-prorock-cose-post-quantum-signatures belongs to
> COSE. It is always better to bring drafts to their corresponding areas of
> expertise if it exists as that would guarantee the quality of a draft.
>
>
>
> Personally, I think the new PQ WG should focus on areas whose WGs have
> concluded and are currently orphan from an IETF WG.
>
>
>
> Rgs,
>
> Panos
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* saag <[e-mail]> *On Behalf Of *Mike Prorock
> *Sent:* Friday, March 25, 2022 9:08 AM
> *To:* Rebecca Guthrie <rmguthr=[e-mail]>
> *Cc:* [e-mail]
> *Subject:* RE: [EXTERNAL] [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ
> Maintenance WG"
>
>
>
> *CAUTION*: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and know
> the content is safe.
>
>
>
> Email crossed - yes, thank you Rebecca - we are actively working on the
> PQC Signature side of things with some great support from a variety of
> parties.  Getting a defined list as this is an evolving space would be
> great.
>
>
> Mike Prorock
>
> CTO, Founder
>
> https://mesur.io/
> <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmesur.io%2F&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639680751%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=r1CFZbUj7O%2BNo6JVlgbYcE77PdxFFTUq4G4FVkt9thg%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 25, 2022 at 7:19 AM Rebecca Guthrie <rmguthr=
> [e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Hi Roman,
>
> Thank you for keeping track of the PQ work in IETF (and thanks to Panos
> for reviving this topic)! Is the PQ activity list something that others are
> able to update? There is a draft, JSON Encoding for PQ Signatures
> (draft-prorock-cose-post-quantum-signatures-00), and another newly-uploaded
> draft, draft-guthrie-ipsecme-ikev2-hybrid-auth, that can be added to the
> list.
>
> Also- though it is still being worked out which protocols are in the scope
> of the proposed PQ Agility WG charter, could it be helpful to establish a
> separate mail-list, as a place to begin these conversations?
>
> Rebecca
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: saag <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw
> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2022 8:02 AM
> To: Kampanakis, Panos <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ Maintenance WG"
>
> Hi Panos!
>
> No updates.  While there is concrete charter text describing the mechanics
> of how such a hypothetical WG would operate, it doesn't describe what
> protocols would be in scope for the initial body of work.  Progress is
> blocked pending identification of such initial milestones (i.e., what
> protocols need a PQC re-design but don't have an existing WG to address it).
>
> Feedback continues to be welcome on this list (saag@ietf).  I've been
> trying to keep a running summary of the PQC work in the IETF at
> https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftrac.ietf.org%2Ftrac%2Fsec%2Fwiki%2FPQCAgility&amp;data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C654932872ddc4f843f7808da0cc51cae%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637836337995913584%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=AoUcD0vWmShCxinFoJRzqq8Mr5z9aIAycqchpMKiIj4%3D&amp;reserved=0
> <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftrac.ietf.org%2Ftrac%2Fsec%2Fwiki%2FPQCAgility&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639680751%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Jp7ToDJOJsfpZrIDybklkD1iayyQM4g%2FogDC4VgEoE8%3D&reserved=0>
> .
>
> Regards,
> Roman
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kampanakis, Panos <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2022 11:08 PM
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Cc: Roman Danyliw <[e-mail]>; Benjamin Kaduk <[e-mail]>
> > Subject: RE: [saag] Re: About the "Draft text for a PQ Maintenance WG"
> >
> > Hi Roman, Ben,
> >
> > Just resurrecting this thread from a few months back.
> >
> > Do you know if there will be any updates or progress on this new WG by
> > IETF- 113?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Panos
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: saag <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Sheehe, Charles J.
> > (GRC-
> > LCN0)
> > Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 8:19 AM
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] [saag] [EXTERNAL] Re: About the "Draft text
> > for a PQ Maintenance WG"
> >
> > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do
> > not click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender
> > and know the content is safe.
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > I think the charter looks fine.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Chuck
> >
> > Charles J. Sheehe III
> > Computer Engineer
> > Secure Networks, System
> > Integration and Test Branch (LCN)
> > Glenn Research Center
> > 21000 Brookpark Rd
> > Cleveland, OH 44135
> > [e-mail] Email
> > [e-mail] SIPRmail
> > Office: 216-433-5179
> >      It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how
> > the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them
> better.
> >
> >     The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose
> > face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who
> > errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort
> > without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the
> > deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends
> > himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the
> > triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at
> > least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with
> those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
> > Theodore Roosevelt
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: saag <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Roman Danyliw
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 2:23 PM
> > To: Kampanakis, Panos <[e-mail]>; Salz, Rich
> > <rsalz=[e-mail]>; Benjamin Kaduk <[e-mail]>;
> > [e-mail]
> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ
> > Maintenance WG"
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> >
> >
> > We've heard this confusion on using the "maintenance" short hand to
> > characterize this potential body of work.  The intent was what Panos
> > described
> > - a short hand where the "maintenance" was on existing IETF protocol
> > to allow it to benefit from PQC mechanisms.
> >
> >
> >
> > The proposed, templated charter language more precisely captures the
> > intent -- "The [Planned WG Name] working group ([Planned WG Acronym])
> > is chartered as a WG to analyze, adapt or update IETF protocols,
> > registries, and associated code points with PQ cryptographic mechanisms."
> > (https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgit
> > hub.com
> <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhub.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639680751%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=U7FU4%2Bg0bapKdyEdbnWElj1k8pOASikrqSq1zh%2Ft6yU%3D&reserved=0>
> %2Frdanyliw%2Fietf-pq-maintenance%2Fblob%2Fmain%2Fpqm-charter.m
> > d&amp;data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov
> <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F40uwe.nsa.gov%2F&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639680751%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=fbB5kjBISa7D9stg%2F%2BjJ8BgKBlp4%2BW%2BHuRZZgDqa4BI%3D&reserved=0>
> %7C654932872ddc4f843f7808da0
> > cc51cae%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C63783633799591358
> > 4%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6
> > Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=qmZgx%2BJWwcrKtqD7fwcL2lK43UQa
> > 5K0dPkZYl0n2ZGo%3D&amp;reserved=0
> > <
> https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.
> > com%2Frdanyliw%2Fietf-pq-maintenance%2Fblob%2Fmain%2Fpqm-
> > charter.md&data=04%7C01%7CCharles.J.Sheehe%40nasa.gov
> <https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F40nasa.gov%2F&data=04%7C01%7Crmguthr%40uwe.nsa.gov%7C4abca524b0c5431de41e08da0edb5e5e%7Cd61e9a6ffc164f848a3e6eeff33e136b%7C0%7C0%7C637838632639680751%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=omqhdtvGKjzrujW9dH0F2C2oJPXj5gzvbmixu%2BVvTwk%3D&reserved=0>
> %7Cd092f22f99e
> > c48fe1a1a08d983764e40%7C7005d45845be48ae8140d43da96dd17b%7C0%7
> > C0%7C637685366837666194%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4w
> > LjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdat
> > a=mJG8R%2FPW8OcWxEdkDGyJ1P0DxvUhWd2XODuf55oYDSM%3D&reserved
> > =0> ).  I've removed "PQ maintenance" from the header of the templated
> > charter.  It now reads "PQC Agility WG".  The term didn't appear in
> > the charter text itself.  However, to eliminate all possible c
> > onfusion I also the one instance of maintenance by s/protocol
> maintenance/protocol changes/.
> >
> >
> >
> > Roman
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Kampanakis, Panos <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 12:53 PM
> > To: Salz, Rich <rsalz=[e-mail]>; Roman Danyliw
> > <[e-mail]>; Benjamin Kaduk <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
> > Subject: RE: [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ Maintenance WG"
> >
> >
> >
> > Maybe maintenance is the wrong word, but the point is to have a WG for
> > orphaned (without a WG) protocols like CURDLE was for Curve25519/448.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: saag <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> > On
> > Behalf Of Salz, Rich
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2021 12:41 PM
> > To: Ludovic Perret <[e-mail]
> > <mailto:[e-mail]> >; Roman Danyliw
> > <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> >; Benjamin Kaduk <[e-mail]
> > <mailto:[e-mail]> >; [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
> > Cc: Kampanakis, Panos <kpanos=[e-mail]
> > <mailto:kpanos=[e-mail]> >
> > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] [saag] About the "Draft text for a PQ
> > Maintenance WG"
> >
> >
> >
> > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do
> > not click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender
> > and know the content is safe.
> >
> >
> >
> > I find the concept of post-quantum *maintenance* very strange.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > saag mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> > ietf.org
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>
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