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no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-scim.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Daniel Cormier , scim@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6 Precedence: list Subject: =?utf-8?q?=5Bscim=5D_Re=3A_Pagination_Support_for_Multi-Valued_Attributes_in?= =?utf-8?q?_SCIM_2=2E0?= List-Id: Simple Cloud Identity Management BOF Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000012a10e064a0b521c Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000012a10d064a0b521b" --00000000000012a10d064a0b521b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've had various conversations about this over the last few years and representing the multi-valued attribute as a (sub)resource has always ended up looking like a cleaner option than the SCIM query/filter-based methods described in draft-hunt-scim-mv-filtering-00 and in the recent email to this mailing list by Saurabh. Going deeper on the multi-valued attribute as a (sub)resource approach, there are a few different ideas that have come to mind: 1. A draft to explicitly address group memberships, as that's the primary real world scenario I've seen where SCIM resource sizes become t= oo large to manage. I've seen some other APIs represent group memberships a= s their own resource (e.g.: /GroupMembers) and I think that has value in S= CIM as well when thinking about things like delta query/change detection. I think /Groups//members is useful too and can exist alongside /GroupMembers without issue. 2. A draft to explicitly address existing attributes defined in the SCIM specifications - the members attribute on groups, but also potentially roles, entitlements, the "groups" attribute on users (and other resources?), etc. 3. A draft to define an extensible approach to representing a multi-valued attribute as a sub-resource endpoint (e.g.: /Users//entitlements, or /Users// Separate from the sub-resource approach, a few other ideas that have come up in my discussions: - Define a way to paginate a SCIM resource that treats the JSON object representing the SCIM resource as the thing to be paginated, rather than the list of values in an array for a specific multi-valued attribute. Th= is has the benefit of helping with pagination on a resource with several multi-valued attributes that each require pagination, and with single-valued attributes that have large values. - Utilize an existing feature in HTTP (or another standard). I'm not an expert on HTTP, but Chunked Transfer Encoding stood out when I was looki= ng into this. I lean towards option #1 or #3 from the list of subresource representation variations. Thanks, Danny On Thu, Jan 29, 2026 at 11:58=E2=80=AFAM Phillip Hunt wrote: > *This message originated outside your organization.* > > ------------------------------ > > There was a mult-value paging extension draft submitted back in 2019. > > SCIM Protocol: Multi-Value Paging Extension > > datatracker.ietf.org > > [image: ietf-logo-nor-180.png] > > > > This was basically adding paging features to the filter query so that > queries like the following become possible: > > In the following example, all Groups are searched and only Groups > whose name starts with "Group" are selected. Additionally, the > members attribute values are filtered return only member values with > "type" equal to "groups" (as in sub-groups) returning only the first > 5 values using the attributes paging qualifying parameters. > GET /v2/Groups?filter=3DdisplayName sw 'Group'&attributes=3D*,members[typ= e > eq \"Group\"&count=3D5&startIndex=3D1] > > > The draft had the advantage of being backwards compatible and was > relatively stateless. > > One note, it=E2=80=99s not clear, but the first example in the draft of r= etrieving > only work emails is to show existing core > SCIM functionality. The following example show how the extension of > adding paging values, allows a client to > ask for sub-sets of items. > > I think it was lost in the Covid shutdown that happened after. > > Cheers, > > Phil Hunt > phil.hunt@independentid.com > > > > > > > On Jan 29, 2026, at 6:32=E2=80=AFAM, Daniel Cormier > wrote: > > We've had the same problem getting groups with many members (some with > > 100k). For what it's worth, since it is an internal implementation, > > we added a new endpoint: GET /Groups/{id}/members. Our flow was to > retrieve the group (GET /Groups/{id}) with its members excluded, then > paginate through GET /Group/{id}/members separately. It worked well > for our case. > > Some previous discussion around group member pagination: > > * > > > <-- Mentions the same solution we used > * < > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/scim/67Bd0iotMoEx5rcjCUsHUzQzQGU/ > > > > * > > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list -- scim@ietf.org > To unsubscribe send an email to scim-leave@ietf.org > > > _______________________________________________ > scim mailing list -- scim@ietf.org > To unsubscribe send an email to scim-leave@ietf.org > --00000000000012a10d064a0b521b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've had various conversations about this over the las= t few years and representing the multi-valued attribute as a (sub)resource = has always ended up looking like a cleaner option than the SCIM query/filte= r-based methods described in draft-hunt-scim-mv-filtering-00 and in the rec= ent email to this mailing list by Saurabh. Going deeper on the multi-valued= attribute as a (sub)resource approach, there are a few different ideas tha= t have come to mind:

  1. A draft to explicitly address group mem= berships, as that's the primary real world scenario I've seen where= SCIM resource sizes become too large to manage. I've seen some other A= PIs represent group memberships as their own resource (e.g.: /GroupMembers)= and I think that has value in SCIM as well when thinking about things like= delta query/change detection. I think /Groups/<id>/members is useful= too and can exist alongside /GroupMembers without issue.

  2. A= draft to explicitly address existing attributes defined in the SCIM specif= ications - the members attribute on groups, but also potentially roles, ent= itlements, the "groups" attribute on users (and other resources?)= , etc.

  3. A draft to define an extensible approach to represen= ting a multi-valued attribute as a sub-resource endpoint (e.g.: /Users/<= id>/entitlements, or /Users/<id>/<customAttributeURN>

Separate from the sub-resource approach, a few o= ther ideas that have come up in my discussions:

  • Define a way to paginate a SCIM resource that treats the JSON object = representing the SCIM resource as the thing to be paginated, rather than th= e list of values in an array for a specific multi-valued attribute. This ha= s the benefit of helping with pagination on a resource with several multi-v= alued attributes that each require pagination, and with single-valued attri= butes that have large values.=C2=A0

  • Utilize an existing fea= ture in HTTP (or another standard). I'm not an expert on HTTP, but Chun= ked Transfer Encoding stood out when I was looking into this.=C2=A0

    • I lean towards option #1 or #3 from = the list of subresource representation variations.=C2=A0

    Thanks,

    Danny


    =

    On Thu, Jan 29, 2026 at 11:58=E2=80=AFAM Phillip Hunt <phil.hunt@independent= id.com> wrote:

    This message originated outside your organization.

    <= br>

    There was a mult-value paging extension draft submitted back in 2019.=

    =

    This was basically adding paging features = to the filter query so that queries like the following become possible:

    =
    In the following example, all Groups are searched and only Groups
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0whose name starts with "Group" are selected.= =C2=A0 Additionally, the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0members attribute values ar= e filtered return only member values with
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0"type= " equal to "groups" (as in sub-groups) returning only the fi= rst
    =C2=A0 =C2=A05 values using the attributes paging qualifying = parameters.
    GET /v2/Groups?filter=3DdisplayName sw 'Gro= up'&attributes=3D*,members[type
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 eq \= "Group\"&count=3D5&startIndex=3D1]

    The draft had the advantage of being backwards co= mpatible and was relatively stateless.

    One note, i= t=E2=80=99s not clear, but the first example in the draft of retrieving onl= y work emails is to show existing core
    SCIM functionality.=C2=A0 = The following example show how the extension of adding paging values, allow= s a client to
    ask for sub-sets of items.

    I think it was lost in the Covid shutdown that happened after.
    <= br>
    Cheers,

    Phil Hunt






    On Jan 29, 2026, at 6:32=E2=80=AFAM= , Daniel Cormier <daniel.cormier+ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

    <= div>We've had the same problem getting groups with many members (some w= ith
    100k). For what it's worth, since it i= s an internal implementation,
    we added a new endpoint: GET = /Groups/{id}/members. Our flow was to
    retrieve the group (GET /Groups/{i= d}) with its members excluded, then
    paginate through GET /Group/{id}/mem= bers separately. It worked well
    for our case.

    Some previous discu= ssion around group member pagination:

    * <https://mailarc= hive.ietf.org/arch/msg/scim/YCcs_ZRWOo4HM8zxKbXlAi2Cpag/>
    <-- = Mentions the same solution we used
    =C2=A0* <https://mailarc= hive.ietf.org/arch/msg/scim/67Bd0iotMoEx5rcjCUsHUzQzQGU/>
    * <<= a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg= /scim/txBFAJgcxb0mhIi1Bp0jaL6t2WU/__;!!PwKahg!-QXA_7ekr2W3bWqtyUF8mHPk4mH7F= 0m5NQfl7nBcUg1Cm1nCK8PiBBe0aaQTePX72wIdSK3Dlv7VJL_dJMc61biKnDQ$" target=3D"= _blank">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/scim/txBFAJgcxb0mhIi1Bp0jaL6t= 2WU/>

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