Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

"Matt Peterson (mpeterso)" <Matt.Peterson@oneidentity.com> Mon, 13 September 2021 15:02 UTC

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From: "Matt Peterson (mpeterso)" <Matt.Peterson@oneidentity.com>
To: Danny Mayer <mayer@pdmconsulting.net>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
CC: "scim@ietf.org" <scim@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter
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Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 15:02:28 +0000
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References: <9BCA478F-548E-4F6A-9F1B-6D8E15AE9373@cisco.com> <BBE3BC42-F3C5-4B89-A10F-0949D9876E62@independentid.com> <7B200805-50FD-4C77-8F92-E9877F6E70B5@cisco.com> <c131d8dc-8072-f0dc-9ed2-69cffcbae4c7@pdmconsulting.net>
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Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter
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Danny,

One of the goals of the workgroup is to understand what the pagination use cases are (besides initial loading of object set to be synchronized).

I'm eager to start keeping track of pagination use cases.  Can you posting to the list the use cases that you are thinking of you'd need pagination for?   Thanks!

From: scim <scim-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Danny Mayer
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 6:11 PM
To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>rg>; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com>
Cc: scim@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

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Pagination and synchronization are really different issues. Synchronization MAY need pagination but not necessarily. There are other reasons why pagination may be necessary.

Danny
On 9/10/21 8:00 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote:
Thanks for the feedback Phil.  I'm trying to determine proposed changes to the charter text.....I suspect there might have been a translation issue for synchronization being more about pagination than paging?

If you can provide suggested updates, it will be helpful to rally agreement for the updates too.

Best, Nancy

From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@independentid.com><mailto:phil.hunt@independentid.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:34 PM
To: ncamwing <ncamwing@cisco.com><mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com>
Cc: "scim@ietf.org"<mailto:scim@ietf.org> <scim@ietf.org><mailto:scim@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [scim] Call for support on proposed SCIM/SINS (re)charter

Nancy,

Thanks for putting this together.

For this go around my interest lies mainly in Events and Synchronization and profiles.  I am willing to provide updated drafts for this process after some initial agreement on cases.  Drafts already in the archive (they may be fairly out of date!):

* SCIM Events - draft-hunt-idevent-scim<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-hunt-idevent-scim&data=04%7C01%7Cmatt.peterson%40oneidentity.com%7Cf724206102d841ce536508d974b89ea7%7C91c369b51c9e439c989c1867ec606603%7C0%7C0%7C637669158559076639%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=aTbIFVma5fAKXT1IFSNi0VMxhpHgwPxbzLLP8Lyfleg%3D&reserved=0>  (needs to be updated to reflect the work we did in RFC8417)
* OpenId Connect Profile for SCIM - https://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-scim-profile-1_0.html<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fopenid.net%2Fspecs%2Fopenid-connect-scim-profile-1_0.html&data=04%7C01%7Cmatt.peterson%40oneidentity.com%7Cf724206102d841ce536508d974b89ea7%7C91c369b51c9e439c989c1867ec606603%7C0%7C0%7C637669158559086635%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=dpdcId61OuqI2BznbvQYF%2BCM1xr3mDhbNeLra8R%2FFYk%3D&reserved=0>

Regarding the MV-Paging draft.  This draft has nothing to do with synchronization and is intended for clients who need to pull a limited number of values in a multi-valued-attribute in situations such as large groups. Most typical use would be in building a user interface allowing the searching of MVAs.

As far as exploring using paging as a synchronization approach is not something we should explore (ie in the charter). IMHO this appraoch an anti-pattern.  If its needed, I am happy to add text in the best practices or elsewhere as to why this isn't a great approach from the perspective of security, DoS, timeliness, scale, and cost.

That said, a couple people indicated they wanted stateful paging. Unfortunately they didn't elaborate on a use case.

Phil Hunt
@independentid
phil.hunt@independentid.com<mailto:phil.hunt@independentid.com>





On Sep 8, 2021, at 5:21 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:ncamwing=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:

Hello SCIM participants,

After some virtual meetings (thank you Pam for hosting these!) and discussion, there is a new proposed charter that addresses the points raised at the IETF 111 SINS session.
This is a call for support of the charter defined below, please provide your response by Sept. 24, 2021.

As you respond in support for the charter, please also specify if you are willing to produce, review and/or implement the resulting documents.
Otherwise, do provide feedback in the time window if there are concerns or issues you see with the charter below:

Charter

The System for Cross-domain Identity Management (SCIM) specification is an HTTP-based protocol that makes managing identities in multi-domain scenarios easier. SCIM was last published in 2015 and has seen growing adoption.

One goal for this working group is to shepherd SCIM, currently RFC series 7642<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Frfc7642&data=04%7C01%7Cmatt.peterson%40oneidentity.com%7Cf724206102d841ce536508d974b89ea7%7C91c369b51c9e439c989c1867ec606603%7C0%7C0%7C637669158559086635%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=oAINKBwQkQ7brNWd9N3RS1L7kclX1ES9%2BXzMXINnMzQ%3D&reserved=0>amp;reserved=0>, 7643<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Frfc7643&data=04%7C01%7Cmatt.peterson%40oneidentity.com%7Cf724206102d841ce536508d974b89ea7%7C91c369b51c9e439c989c1867ec606603%7C0%7C0%7C637669158559096631%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=hA9V7rnyX9ueO9RCfWtIea3YUnvA1tXL8zFIbrWZPZ4%3D&reserved=0>amp;reserved=0>, 7644<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Frfc7644&data=04%7C01%7Cmatt.peterson%40oneidentity.com%7Cf724206102d841ce536508d974b89ea7%7C91c369b51c9e439c989c1867ec606603%7C0%7C0%7C637669158559106629%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=N129Lu9sJF8uld90ch7n5bznb%2BkT1pq9C5%2B6UBzIHUg%3D&reserved=0>amp;reserved=0>, through the Internet Standard process. The group will deliver revised specifications for the SCIM requirements as Informational, and for the SCIM protocol and base schema suitable for consideration as a Standard. This work will be based upon the existing RFCs, errata and interoperabilty feedback, and incorporate current security and privacy best practices.

In addition to revising the requirements, protocol and base schema RFCs, the group will also consider additional specifications as extensions to SCIM that have found broad adoption and are ready for standards track. This includes profiles and schemas for interoperability in additional scenarios. The working group will develop additional Proposed Standard RFCs based on outcomes of the following work:

  1.  Revision of the informational RFC 7642 will:

     *   Focus on Use cases and implementation patterns

        *   Pull vs. Push based use cases
        *   Events and signals use cases
        *   Deletion use cases

     *   New use cases may be added to the revised RFC

  1.  Revision of RFC 7643/44 will include:

     *   Profiling SCIM relationships with other identity-centric protocols such as OAuth 2.0, OpenID Connect, Shared Signals, and Fastfed
     *   Updates to the evolution of the externalid usage

  1.  Document SCIM support for synchronization-related goals between domains focused on:

     *   Handling returning large result sets through paging, based on [draft-hunt-scim-mv-paging-00]
     *   Incremental approaches to synchronization

  1.  Support for deletion-related goals including:

     *   Handling Deletes in SCIM Servers that don't allow Deletes (Soft Deletes) - based on [draft-ansari-scim-soft-delete-00]

  1.  Support for advanced automation scenarios such as:

     *   Discovery and negotiation of client credentials
     *   Attribute mapping
     *   Per-attribute schema negotiation

  1.  Enhance the existing schema to support exchanging of HR, Enterprise group and privileged access management (using draft-grizzle-scim-pam<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fid%2Fdraft-grizzle-scim-pam-ext-00.html&data=04%7C01%7Cmatt.peterson%40oneidentity.com%7Cf724206102d841ce536508d974b89ea7%7C91c369b51c9e439c989c1867ec606603%7C0%7C0%7C637669158559106629%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=uP8dDJjH%2FI%2Bhy5AoAOt6imwhj8N7sdC7lUlbDml2DN0%3D&reserved=0> as a base)

Best, Nancy (as one of the BoF chairs)

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