Re: [secdir] Review of draft-ietf-sfc-architecture-08

Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@MIT.EDU> Thu, 28 May 2015 04:02 UTC

Return-Path: <kaduk@mit.edu>
X-Original-To: secdir@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: secdir@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18F4F1A6F22; Wed, 27 May 2015 21:02:30 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -6.211
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pdtIrw58FZoG; Wed, 27 May 2015 21:02:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from dmz-mailsec-scanner-7.mit.edu (dmz-mailsec-scanner-7.mit.edu [18.7.68.36]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E5181A6F15; Wed, 27 May 2015 21:02:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-AuditID: 12074424-f79b06d000000cfd-44-55669353ccd4
Received: from mailhub-auth-3.mit.edu ( [18.9.21.43]) (using TLS with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by dmz-mailsec-scanner-7.mit.edu (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id BB.25.03325.35396655; Thu, 28 May 2015 00:02:27 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) by mailhub-auth-3.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.9.2) with ESMTP id t4S42QDn021562; Thu, 28 May 2015 00:02:26 -0400
Received: from multics.mit.edu (system-low-sipb.mit.edu [18.187.2.37]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.12.4) with ESMTP id t4S42MII004301 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 28 May 2015 00:02:23 -0400
Received: (from kaduk@localhost) by multics.mit.edu (8.12.9.20060308) id t4S42Ln8029597; Thu, 28 May 2015 00:02:21 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 00:02:21 -0400
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@MIT.EDU>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
In-Reply-To: <55661626.5010300@joelhalpern.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.1.10.1505272356450.22210@multics.mit.edu>
References: <20150524211041.52cde768@latte.josefsson.org> <02FCDA94-FCC3-4875-AFBE-D07CC792B0C9@cisco.com> <alpine.GSO.1.10.1505252257290.22210@multics.mit.edu> <2DB7995B-8AF1-4EEE-971E-40A1A6294461@cisco.com> <alpine.GSO.1.10.1505261917240.22210@multics.mit.edu> <53F5D306-5860-4415-8AA4-390882ED94AB@cisco.com> <alpine.GSO.1.10.1505271355150.22210@multics.mit.edu> <55661626.5010300@joelhalpern.com>
User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (GSO 962 2008-03-14)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset="US-ASCII"
X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprEKsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUixCmqrRs8OS3U4MkXFYtP73awWNz4dJvZ YsaficwWH0+9YbL4sPAhi8W9LZfYHdg8pvzeyOqxZMlPJo9zU74zesw8c5Hd48vlz2wBrFFc NimpOZllqUX6dglcGZeW72cp+MhbcfjmPcYGxl7uLkZODgkBE4kTrT8YIWwxiQv31rN1MXJx CAksZpK4+fQBK4SzkVGi51orVOYQk8SZK5OZIJwGRomfS5azg/SzCGhLvJ3ygwnEZhNQkZj5 ZiMbiC0CFN+/5ANYA7PAQiaJKzOnsHQxcnAIC9hJfJ+gAlLDKaAvsWfRYbA5vAKOEqtnX2GG WDCZWeLK3n6whKiAjsTq/SC9IEWCEidnPgGzmQW0JJZP38YygVFwFpLULCSpBYxMqxhlU3Kr dHMTM3OKU5N1i5MT8/JSi3TN9XIzS/RSU0o3MYKCnt1FZQdj8yGlQ4wCHIxKPLwv5NNChVgT y4orcw8xSnIwKYny2vUBhfiS8lMqMxKLM+KLSnNSiw8xSnAwK4nwfvEEyvGmJFZWpRblw6Sk OViUxHk3/eALERJITyxJzU5NLUgtgsnKcHAoSfA+nAjUKFiUmp5akZaZU4KQZuLgBBnOAzT8 K0gNb3FBYm5xZjpE/hSjopQ472mQhABIIqM0D64XlpReMYoDvSLM6zsJqIoHmNDgul8BDWYC Gmx2NAVkcEkiQkqqgbEvX2zxzTssWtfmTQ2bzrx78gvRGdbLCsVP1Z3p1tobXjaVh81u64vn b4Nm+4dFzhIu4C7d9O2Sts06q6Yfi3cUK5ekHDtysZE51cFrhkt/D79pkoXeLcP51c/S9h30 vbB+5zUN48D7N++0JP96zFQkeeVwVuWTxUkOmzrMOdPM1Y42P9kRc16JpTgj0VCLuag4EQB4 BseVJQMAAA==
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/secdir/2TTZVlHfgc-a4WAR29zkVulokCo>
Cc: "iesg@ietf.org" <iesg@ietf.org>, "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>, "secdir@ietf.org" <secdir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-sfc-architecture.all@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-architecture.all@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [secdir] Review of draft-ietf-sfc-architecture-08
X-BeenThere: secdir@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Security Area Directorate <secdir.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/secdir>, <mailto:secdir-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/secdir/>
List-Post: <mailto:secdir@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:secdir-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdir>, <mailto:secdir-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 04:02:30 -0000

On Wed, 27 May 2015, Joel M. Halpern wrote:

> The "plain text payload" is an IP packet.  Customer IP packet protection needs
> are, in almost all cases I can think of, independent of the routing path
> through the network that the packet takes.  As such, I do not see why SFC
> adding yet another means to direct traffic flows changes the protection needs
> for customer IP packets.
>
> Note that many of the results SFC is trying to simplify are achieved today,
> albeit with more complexity.
>
> So I am having trouble seeing what requirement you want the SFC architecture
> to call out.

I believe that the main motivating factor is the case where the NSA or
some other "three-letter agency" is sniffing traffic within a network.
There was a bunch of news about "ssl added and removed here" a while back,
motivating some companies to increase the use of encryption within their
networks.

If the attacker only has access to a small number of nodes or links within
the network, then changing the paths over which data passes can
potentially expose it to surveillance when it was not before.  You are
correct that SFC itself may not be adding new real requirements on what
data (paths) should be protected, but it is, in some sense, the first "new
thing" now that we are aware of the extent to which networks come under
attack.  As such, we are inclined to take the opportunity to remind
readers of the potential for these attacks and that they may want to
consider countermeasures as appropriate.

So, it is not exactly an additional requirement in practice, but rather an
additional requirement in terms of what we document in IETF protocols, an
addition made to reflect our changed understanding of the world in which
we operate.

-Ben