Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunlight-05
Ben Laurie <benl@google.com> Fri, 22 February 2013 16:36 UTC
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References: <1359054393.10945.15.camel@minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu> <26550_1359459340_r0TBZdV2026657_CABrd9STdUzPok8bcAUJddcQ0iWkk=VhP6SZOF-Tv8NFf1fUDFQ@mail.gmail.com> <1359494919.17745.12.camel@minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu> <CABrd9ST1mHpq=Cd8yoLHbbhjBQQpATdoKamKsKCZ8D7+4BOC5w@mail.gmail.com> <5116507D.7070000@gondrom.org> <CABrd9STd0_z-bL1X1ED7XmJ7a+nAvaf7-kn105q9d7ucLsO57w@mail.gmail.com> <51170BF7.6060409@gondrom.org>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 16:36:22 +0000
Message-ID: <CABrd9ST04Cuy-BAcmZer=6-A7y+xrQ48FH_=n-up5PCQMaQuMw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Ben Laurie <benl@google.com>
To: Tobias Gondrom <tobias.gondrom@gondrom.org>
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Cc: "secdir@ietf.org" <secdir@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-laurie-pki-sunlight.all@tools.ietf.org, Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunlight-05
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On 10 February 2013 02:54, Tobias Gondrom <tobias.gondrom@gondrom.org> wrote: > On 10/02/13 04:47, Ben Laurie wrote: >> On 9 February 2013 13:34, Tobias Gondrom <tobias.gondrom@gondrom.org> wrote: >>> Hi Ben, >>> >>> I also just read through your draft in version -07. >>> I can see the draft consists of two parts: >>> 1. data structure >>> 2. protocol. >>> >>> For part #1 the data structure: in case you are not aware of it, some >>> years ago the IETF LTANS WG has done something a bit similar in a more >>> generic way (i.e. for any data not only for certificates) in form of >>> RFC4998 and RFC6283 >> Interesting. I was not aware of these. From a quick skim they are >> indeed similar, but would need a bunch of added machinery to get them >> to where CT is (e.g. not append only, no concept of MMD). > You are welcome. > I believe the gap is mostly towards the protocol side (e.g. including > MMD). As the RFCs only define the data structure. It seems like a lot of work to inherit an essentially trivial data structure. >>> with a number of implementations by major ECM and >>> DMS vendors. >> No idea what ECM or DMS are in this context. > ECM: Enterprise Content Management > DMS: Document Management System > (Systems that store electronic documents/data. > And protect the proof of integrity / non-repudiation with Timestamps and > RFC4998/RFC6283.) These systems rely on trust. :-) > > >> >>> Just as a thought, maybe helpful looking at or even for re-use instead >>> of re-inventing the wheel? >>> >>> Best regards, Tobias >>> >>> >>> >>> On 30/01/13 18:15, Ben Laurie wrote: >>>> On 29 January 2013 21:28, Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu> wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 2013-01-29 at 11:35 +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: >>>>>> On 24 January 2013 19:06, Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu> wrote: >>>>>>> Similarly, as an anti-spam measure, this document proposes that logs accept >>>>>>> only certificates which chain back to a known CA, and requires that logs >>>>>>> validate each submitted certificate before appending it to the log. This >>>>>>> sounds good, but it's not the only possible mechanism, and so I think MUST >>>>>>> is too strong here. Additionally, there is no discussion of the security >>>>>>> implications if a client depends on a log to do this and the log does not >>>>>>> actually do so. Rather than requiring that logs validate every submitted >>>>>>> certificate, the document should only RECOMMEND that they do so, and make >>>>>>> clear that clients MUST NOT depend on such validation having been done. >>>>>> On second thoughts, whilst that is an effective anti-spam measure, it >>>>>> is also part of the functionality of CT: i.e. to identify misissue and >>>>>> give some means to do something about it. The CA check ensures we have >>>>>> someone to blame for misissue. >>>>> Hrm. I sort of thought the idea was for the logs to be untrusted >>>>> repositories, able to be audited but not themselves expected to detect >>>>> problems. If logs are expected to do validation of this sort, is there >>>>> a way for a third party to discover whether they are doing so (or at >>>>> least, whether they are accepting certificates they shouldn't)? >>>> A third party can indeed verify this - they just watch the log like >>>> any monitor does. >>>> >>>>>> I am not averse to suggestions that achieve the overall aim, but I >>>>>> don't see the virtue of leaving it vague in the description of the >>>>>> experiment we are actually running. >>>>> I'm not suggesting vagueness; rather, I'm merely suggesting downgrading >>>>> a MUST to a SHOULD, which is still quite strong. What happens if >>>>> someone wants to start logging certs issued by a private CA, or >>>>> self-signed certs they have observed, or...? >>>> I don't see an issue with logging certs from a private CA. As for >>>> self-signed certs, I don't see the point, but I guess if someone >>>> figures out a point we can relax it in the next version. >>>> >>>>> I'm suppose I'm OK with keeping the scope narrower than that for >>>>> purposes of the experiment, as long as it is possible to relax the >>>>> requirement later without breaking the system. Hence the importance of >>>>> making it clear that clients must not rely on logs to have done >>>>> validation (on which point I think we've already reached agreement). >>>> Cool. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> secdir mailing list >>>> secdir@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdir >>>> wiki: http://tools.ietf.org/area/sec/trac/wiki/SecDirReview >
- [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunlight-… Jeffrey Hutzelman
- Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunli… Ben Laurie
- Re: [secdir] [therightkey] dir review of draft-la… =JeffH
- Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunli… Ben Laurie
- Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunli… Jeffrey Hutzelman
- Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunli… Ben Laurie
- Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunli… Tobias Gondrom
- Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunli… Ben Laurie
- Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunli… Tobias Gondrom
- Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunli… Ben Laurie
- Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunli… Tobias Gondrom