Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunlight-05
Ben Laurie <benl@google.com> Sat, 09 February 2013 20:47 UTC
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References: <1359054393.10945.15.camel@minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu> <26550_1359459340_r0TBZdV2026657_CABrd9STdUzPok8bcAUJddcQ0iWkk=VhP6SZOF-Tv8NFf1fUDFQ@mail.gmail.com> <1359494919.17745.12.camel@minbar.fac.cs.cmu.edu> <CABrd9ST1mHpq=Cd8yoLHbbhjBQQpATdoKamKsKCZ8D7+4BOC5w@mail.gmail.com> <5116507D.7070000@gondrom.org>
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 20:47:01 +0000
Message-ID: <CABrd9STd0_z-bL1X1ED7XmJ7a+nAvaf7-kn105q9d7ucLsO57w@mail.gmail.com>
From: Ben Laurie <benl@google.com>
To: Tobias Gondrom <tobias.gondrom@gondrom.org>
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Cc: "secdir@ietf.org" <secdir@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-laurie-pki-sunlight.all@tools.ietf.org, Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunlight-05
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On 9 February 2013 13:34, Tobias Gondrom <tobias.gondrom@gondrom.org> wrote: > Hi Ben, > > I also just read through your draft in version -07. > I can see the draft consists of two parts: > 1. data structure > 2. protocol. > > For part #1 the data structure: in case you are not aware of it, some > years ago the IETF LTANS WG has done something a bit similar in a more > generic way (i.e. for any data not only for certificates) in form of > RFC4998 and RFC6283 Interesting. I was not aware of these. From a quick skim they are indeed similar, but would need a bunch of added machinery to get them to where CT is (e.g. not append only, no concept of MMD). > with a number of implementations by major ECM and > DMS vendors. No idea what ECM or DMS are in this context. > Just as a thought, maybe helpful looking at or even for re-use instead > of re-inventing the wheel? > > Best regards, Tobias > > > > On 30/01/13 18:15, Ben Laurie wrote: >> On 29 January 2013 21:28, Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu> wrote: >>> On Tue, 2013-01-29 at 11:35 +0000, Ben Laurie wrote: >>>> On 24 January 2013 19:06, Jeffrey Hutzelman <jhutz@cmu.edu> wrote: >>>>> Similarly, as an anti-spam measure, this document proposes that logs accept >>>>> only certificates which chain back to a known CA, and requires that logs >>>>> validate each submitted certificate before appending it to the log. This >>>>> sounds good, but it's not the only possible mechanism, and so I think MUST >>>>> is too strong here. Additionally, there is no discussion of the security >>>>> implications if a client depends on a log to do this and the log does not >>>>> actually do so. Rather than requiring that logs validate every submitted >>>>> certificate, the document should only RECOMMEND that they do so, and make >>>>> clear that clients MUST NOT depend on such validation having been done. >>>> On second thoughts, whilst that is an effective anti-spam measure, it >>>> is also part of the functionality of CT: i.e. to identify misissue and >>>> give some means to do something about it. The CA check ensures we have >>>> someone to blame for misissue. >>> Hrm. I sort of thought the idea was for the logs to be untrusted >>> repositories, able to be audited but not themselves expected to detect >>> problems. If logs are expected to do validation of this sort, is there >>> a way for a third party to discover whether they are doing so (or at >>> least, whether they are accepting certificates they shouldn't)? >> A third party can indeed verify this - they just watch the log like >> any monitor does. >> >>>> I am not averse to suggestions that achieve the overall aim, but I >>>> don't see the virtue of leaving it vague in the description of the >>>> experiment we are actually running. >>> I'm not suggesting vagueness; rather, I'm merely suggesting downgrading >>> a MUST to a SHOULD, which is still quite strong. What happens if >>> someone wants to start logging certs issued by a private CA, or >>> self-signed certs they have observed, or...? >> I don't see an issue with logging certs from a private CA. As for >> self-signed certs, I don't see the point, but I guess if someone >> figures out a point we can relax it in the next version. >> >>> I'm suppose I'm OK with keeping the scope narrower than that for >>> purposes of the experiment, as long as it is possible to relax the >>> requirement later without breaking the system. Hence the importance of >>> making it clear that clients must not rely on logs to have done >>> validation (on which point I think we've already reached agreement). >> Cool. >> _______________________________________________ >> secdir mailing list >> secdir@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdir >> wiki: http://tools.ietf.org/area/sec/trac/wiki/SecDirReview >
- [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunlight-… Jeffrey Hutzelman
- Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunli… Ben Laurie
- Re: [secdir] [therightkey] dir review of draft-la… =JeffH
- Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunli… Ben Laurie
- Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunli… Jeffrey Hutzelman
- Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunli… Ben Laurie
- Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunli… Tobias Gondrom
- Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunli… Ben Laurie
- Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunli… Tobias Gondrom
- Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunli… Ben Laurie
- Re: [secdir] dir review of draft-laurie-pki-sunli… Tobias Gondrom