Re: [secdir] [Anima] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-16

Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> Wed, 03 October 2018 14:28 UTC

Return-Path: <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
X-Original-To: secdir@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: secdir@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81D1D1312B3; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 07:28:15 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.2
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nVOR3RLtQ2SP; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 07:28:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 463ED13129E; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 07:28:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55F3620090; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 10:28:11 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 24EA62352; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 10:28:12 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21B44234D; Wed, 3 Oct 2018 10:28:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
cc: anima@ietf.org, Security Directorate <secdir@ietf.org>
In-Reply-To: <fa5bdf78-2b80-e63b-8722-3c2532d57fdb@gmail.com>
References: <153826253306.18743.9250084704876465818@ietfa.amsl.com> <m2sh1qkebi.wl-randy@psg.com> <057bd957-06b4-824e-a7c8-214383819621@huitema.net> <m2murxi8ws.wl-randy@psg.com> <b4a32733-c2df-6bea-17d2-4d45ee4d5136@cisco.com> <m2wor0h9vu.wl-randy@psg.com> <1fd9c9d5-508f-901e-818c-3cc87725c331@cisco.com> <m2d0ssh661.wl-randy@psg.com> <2555.1538506845@localhost> <6b2f2b80-5e9e-101f-4aac-f182f638f8b1@gmail.com> <23133.1538520783@localhost> <acea1a3a-b2ec-5381-128c-b13e903c1158@gmail.com> <10809.1538534121@localhost> <fa5bdf78-2b80-e63b-8722-3c2532d57fdb@gmail.com>
X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1
X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m<nPbLgmtKK-5dC@#:k
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 10:28:12 -0400
Message-ID: <26801.1538576892@localhost>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/secdir/O4IM3JxAMRQVvuwTOuVt33O5bSA>
Subject: Re: [secdir] [Anima] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra-16
X-BeenThere: secdir@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Security Area Directorate <secdir.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/secdir>, <mailto:secdir-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/secdir/>
List-Post: <mailto:secdir@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:secdir-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdir>, <mailto:secdir-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 14:28:16 -0000

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; wrote:
    >> 2) you use NETCONF's mechanism with vouchers that you obtain another
    >> way, and you place them on USB key/CDROM/QR-code.

    > You could. But that makes me a bit nervous too. It's not far from
    > seeing a yellow sticky in the ops room saying "sys pw muggle3scop#" or
    > whatever. People who want airgap security are very cautious about USB
    > keys these days.

I agree, it's a bit similar.
Except that the voucher is a signed entity, and disclosing it causes privacy
issues (people know what you have), rather than being p0wned.  It can easily
go on a CDROM or something else you do trust.
A QR code is also possible, assuming your personnel-safety-critical device
has a camera.
[oh. Now I'm thinking about 2001, Space Odyssey.  I'm seeing Dave Borman with
a giant QR code tattoed on him, much like we proposed doing with the RSA
algorithm back during the cryptowars of the 1990s ]
{and the issues with USB devices are squarely a problem of GUIs accepting
input devices without validation.  It's fixable}

    >> 3) you continue to configure such a network with craft-serial console,
    >> initiating the EST connection via some other credential.

    > It still doesn't scale.

And, worse, I think, it's prone to human error, which is exactly what we want
personnel-safety-critical devices not to suffer from.

    >> > I believe this can be fixed by clearer scoping of the document, and
    >> by > renaming the "lower security" section as "alternative trust
    >> models" or > something.
    >>
    >> I accept that the document could have better text here.  At one point
    >> we discussed an operational considerations document.  Is that really
    >> what you are asking for?

    > Later, maybe, but to get this draft out of the door I think we can do a
    > simpler fix. As Christian pointed out, there isn't really a distinct
    > security analysis, so I think we need to say: This <text> is the
    > recommencded trust model, based on an on-line MASA. If you don't like
    > that trust model, here are the alternatives: <text>.

okay.
It's gonna take a gallon or two of caffeinated beverage.

--
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect  [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [



--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>;, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-