Re: [secdir] [jose] Secdir review of draft-ietf-jose-json-web-signature-31
Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> Mon, 22 September 2014 01:32 UTC
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References: <21512.21725.209461.976375@fireball.kivinen.iki.fi> <4E1F6AAD24975D4BA5B16804296739439AE9DD47@TK5EX14MBXC292.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <CAL02cgSsi603XL2o4S89pAw64yLv0JRZaDg823uiyuTkm02AHA@mail.gmail.com> <21527.63989.999440.801542@fireball.kivinen.iki.fi> <CAL02cgQKfQr_dQ=0-oY19G4rmYL3928UWFLBfhDAyspwMU7W9g@mail.gmail.com> <21529.16232.880915.215045@fireball.kivinen.iki.fi> <CAL02cgSRmP+iRYqTPUdcgTipeDw1H8TdF3AMP-ORSqOwiWJEcQ@mail.gmail.com> <4E1F6AAD24975D4BA5B16804296739439BA59EB7@TK5EX14MBXC286.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <CAL02cgRTmsVTkwwDMbHtcqHzCs6GkOz-uZ_SOKNeR3hxJZMdDw@mail.gmail.com> <03a601cfd460$f8d71d70$ea855850$@augustcellars.com> <C9BA46F1-5F30-47C7-A90A-689C5DA084F6@ve7jtb.com> <03c701cfd483$d1cf45e0$756dd1a0$@augustcellars.com> <F70DA0F7-A855-49A8-A514-39AB8862AF74@ve7jtb.com> <043a01cfd4f2$3df75ff0$b9e61fd0$@augustcellars.com> <457A8BF9-8CDF-43C8-8040-CB42BE110805@ve7jtb.com> <CAL02cgQfCRzUjrKLbyyNTFoKGxKrUnOqH1n6WS-SciWeBrgJzQ@mail.gmail.com> <BEE36F1F-2B23-4527-AF91-7EDF0471066F@ve7jtb.com> <5EF71157-1102-4863-8DC1-2B2A397A4532@ve7jtb.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 21:31:53 -0400
Message-ID: <CAL02cgRfG2LS_4PWbuw=XsG4PrYYC6rExuz36p9z8mdM8g6SSQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
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Cc: "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, secdir <secdir@ietf.org>, Jim Schaad <ietf@augustcellars.com>, Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "jose@ietf.org" <jose@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-jose-json-web-signature.all@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-jose-json-web-signature.all@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [secdir] [jose] Secdir review of draft-ietf-jose-json-web-signature-31
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On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 8:59 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote: > Also with PSS the attack is largely mitigated if the mask function uses > the same hash as the message. http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3447#page-29 > > JWA sec 3.5 requires SHA2 MGF functions for SHA2 message hashes with the > equivalent length. > > If the same is done when SHA3 is added then I think PSS is not as > susceptible to a substitution attack as it might look on the surface. > Certainly, having to change the MGF makes things much harder for the attacker. However, in principle an attacker with a sufficiently broken hash algorithm could compute a preimage for the message *and* the MGF. As RFC 3447 says: "it will be difficult for an opponent to substitute a different hash function" ... using "difficult" in the sense of "way harder than if we hadn't", not in the sense of "just as hard as forging the signature". --Richard > Sorry I just remembers that there was that mitigation for PSS. > > John B. > > On Sep 21, 2014, at 8:47 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote: > > I like the general direction. > > One question, wouldn't the recipient of a PSS signature detect the > substitution of SHA-284 with SHA-256 due to the different key length. > > I was under the perhaps mistaken impression that the key lengths needed to > be the same and just the alg different eg SHA3 and SHA2 keys of the same > length. > > If that is the case we probably have not defined any algs currently that > may be subject to this. That is not to say that we shouldn't warn people > as new algs are defined. > > John B. > > > On Sep 21, 2014, at 8:32 PM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote: > > I think I may have erred by trying to write a treatise on which algorithms > are vulnerable :) Here's some updated text, trying to be more concise. > > Jim: Your points about SHA-256 vs. SHA-512/256 and SHA-256 vs. SHA-3 don't > really apply, since JOSE hasn't defined algorithm identifiers for > SHA-512/256 or SHA-3. > > """ > # Signature Algorithm Protection > > In some usages of JWS, there is a risk of algorithm substitution attacks, > in which an attacker can use an existing signature value with a different > signature algorithm to make it appear that a signer has signed something > that he actually has not. These attacks have been discussed in detail in > the context of CMS {{RFC 6211}}. The risk arises when all of the following > are true: > > > * Verifiers of a signature support multiple algorithms of different > strengths > > * Given an existing signature, an attacker can find another payload that > produces the same signature value with a weaker algorithm > > * In particular, the payload crafted by the attacker is valid in a given > application-layer context > For example, suppose a verifier is willing to accept both "PS256" and > "PS384" as "alg" values, and a signer creates a signature using "PS256". > If the attacker can craft a payload that results in the same signature with > SHA-256 as the signature with SHA-384 of the legitimate payload, then the > "PS256" signature over the bogus payload will be the same as the "PS384" > signature over the legitimate payload. > > > There are several ways for an application using JOSE to mitigate algorithm > substitution attacks > The simplest mitigation is to not accept signatures using vulnerable > algorithms: Algorithm substitution attacks do not arise for all signature > algorithms. The only algorithms defined in JWA > {{I-D.ietf-jose-json-web-algorithms}} that may be vulnerable to algorithm > substitution attacks is RSA-PSS ("PS256", etc.). An implementation that > does not support RSA-PSS is not vulnerable to algorithm substitution > attacks. (Obviously, if other algorithms are added, then they may > introduce new risks.) > > In addition, substitution attacks are only feasible if an attacker can > compute pre-images for the weakest hash function accepted by the > recipient. All JOSE algorithms use SHA-2 hashes, for which there are no > known pre-image attacks as of this writing. Until there begin to be > attacks against SHA-2 hashes, even a JOSE implementation that supports PSS > is safe from substitution attacks. > > Without restricting algorithms, there are also mitigations at the JOSE and > application layer: At the level of JOSE, an application could require that > the "alg" parameter be carried in the protected header. (This is the > approach taken by RFC 6211.) The application could also include a field > reflecting the algorithm in the application payload, and require that it be > matched with the "alg" parameter during verification. (This is the approach > taken by PKIX {{RFC5280}}.) > > Of these mitigations, the only sure solution is the first, not to accept > vulnerable algorithms. Signing over the "alg" parameter (directly or > indirectly) only makes the attacker's work more difficult, by requiring > that the bogus payload also contain bogus information about the signing > algorithm. They do not prevent attack by a sufficiently powerful attacker. > """ > > > >
- [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-jose-json-we… Tero Kivinen
- Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-jose-jso… Mike Jones
- Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-jose-jso… Richard Barnes
- Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-jose-jso… Tero Kivinen
- Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-jose-jso… Tero Kivinen
- Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-jose-jso… Richard Barnes
- Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-jose-jso… Tero Kivinen
- Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-jose-jso… Richard Barnes
- Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-jose-jso… Mike Jones
- Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-jose-jso… Mike Jones
- Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-jose-jso… Richard Barnes
- Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-jose-jso… Mike Jones
- Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-jose-jso… Jim Schaad
- Re: [secdir] [jose] Secdir review of draft-ietf-j… John Bradley
- Re: [secdir] [jose] Secdir review of draft-ietf-j… Mike Jones
- Re: [secdir] [jose] Secdir review of draft-ietf-j… Jim Schaad
- Re: [secdir] [jose] Secdir review of draft-ietf-j… John Bradley
- Re: [secdir] [jose] Secdir review of draft-ietf-j… Jim Schaad
- Re: [secdir] [jose] Secdir review of draft-ietf-j… John Bradley
- Re: [secdir] [jose] Secdir review of draft-ietf-j… Richard Barnes
- Re: [secdir] [jose] Secdir review of draft-ietf-j… John Bradley
- Re: [secdir] [jose] Secdir review of draft-ietf-j… John Bradley
- Re: [secdir] [jose] Secdir review of draft-ietf-j… Richard Barnes
- Re: [secdir] [jose] Secdir review of draft-ietf-j… Richard Barnes
- Re: [secdir] [jose] Secdir review of draft-ietf-j… John Bradley
- Re: [secdir] [jose] Secdir review of draft-ietf-j… Jim Schaad
- Re: [secdir] [jose] Secdir review of draft-ietf-j… Richard Barnes
- Re: [secdir] [jose] Secdir review of draft-ietf-j… Jim Schaad
- Re: [secdir] [jose] Secdir review of draft-ietf-j… Tero Kivinen
- Re: [secdir] [jose] Secdir review of draft-ietf-j… Richard Barnes
- Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-jose-jso… Tero Kivinen
- Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-jose-jso… Mike Jones
- Re: [secdir] [jose] Secdir review of draft-ietf-j… Mike Jones
- Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-jose-jso… Tero Kivinen
- Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-jose-jso… Mike Jones
- Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-jose-jso… Mike Jones