Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working group? Was: Re: ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts
Tero Kivinen <kivinen@iki.fi> Wed, 20 March 2019 14:16 UTC
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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 16:15:51 +0200
From: Tero Kivinen <kivinen@iki.fi>
To: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Cc: Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca>, Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>, Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>, denis bider <denisbider.ietf@gmail.com>, secdir <secdir@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a working group? Was: Re: ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts
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Peter Gutmann writes: > Paul Wouters <paul@nohats.ca> writes: > > >The standard should not be “bug compatible with the dominant > >implementation” > > Just an additional note to this, the standard currently literally is "bug > compatible with the dominant implementation". If you implement SSH as per the > core RFCs, sticking to all the MUSTs and whatnot, it won't talk to OpenSSH, > which means it de facto won't work. > > Also, expanding on Denis' comment about the PROTOOCOL doc: > > Note that OpenSSH's sftp and sftp-server implement revision 3 of the SSH > filexfer protocol described in: > > https://www.openssh.com/txt/draft-ietf-secsh-filexfer-02.txt > > Newer versions of the draft will not be supported, though some features > are individually implemented as extensions described below. > > I don't know if much, or even anything, supports any of draft-ietf-secsh- > filexfer-03.txt through to draft-ietf-secsh-filexfer-13.txt. So the standard > in this case is "use a 17-year-old expired draft, but not any newer version of > the same document". Secsh WG was active between 1997-2006. The filexfer-02 was published in 2001 and final filexfer-13 was published in 2006, i.e., the -13 version is what the working group was working on. My understanding was that the issue was that openssh did not want to implement what was specified in the working group because of the issues with trademarks, personalities and things not at all relevant to the actual protocol development or IETF work. Those things practically killed the group and there was not that much work ongoing after that. This does not mean that IETF working groups do not work, it just mean that one group did fail. In the IPsec we had similar situation where we did finish the base specifications closed up the working at 2005. Created a new working group IPsecME (IP Security Maintenance and Extensions) in 2008 to create place for working extensions and fixes for IPsec protocol suite. We have rechartered several times since, every time checking out our current set of extensions proposed for us and taken those which had enough interest. So I do not think that forming working group raises the bar too high, or makes things too difficult, the issues with secsh was (and I think is) not related to IETF processes. Jan 9 2001 draft-ietf-secsh-filexfer-00.txt Mar 5 2001 draft-ietf-secsh-filexfer-01.txt Nov 21 2001 draft-ietf-secsh-filexfer-02.txt Oct 17 2002 draft-ietf-secsh-filexfer-03.txt Dec 20 2002 draft-ietf-secsh-filexfer-04.txt Feb 12 2004 draft-ietf-secsh-filexfer-05.txt Oct 27 2004 draft-ietf-secsh-filexfer-06.txt Mar 25 2005 draft-ietf-secsh-filexfer-07.txt Apr 6 2005 draft-ietf-secsh-filexfer-08.txt Jun 13 2005 draft-ietf-secsh-filexfer-09.txt Oct 6 2005 draft-ietf-secsh-filexfer-10.txt Jan 18 2006 draft-ietf-secsh-filexfer-11.txt Jan 26 2006 draft-ietf-secsh-filexfer-12.txt Jul 18 2006 draft-ietf-secsh-filexfer-13.txt -- kivinen@iki.fi
- [secdir] ISE seeks help with some crypto drafts RFC ISE (Adrian Farrel)
- Re: [secdir] ISE seeks help with some crypto draf… Paul Wouters
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Salz, Rich
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… David Wong
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… John Mattsson
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Aaron Zauner
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Aaron Zauner
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Aaron Zauner
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… mcgrew
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Aaron Zauner
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Ted Krovetz
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Paul Wouters
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Watson Ladd
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Paul Wouters
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… S Moonesamy
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Uri Blumenthal
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Ted Krovetz
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Uri Blumenthal
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Tony Arcieri
- [secdir] Time to recharter CFRG as a working grou… StJohns, Michael
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Salz, Rich
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Salz, Rich
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… John Mattsson
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Valery Smyslov
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Mathy Vanhoef
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Michael StJohns
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Richard Barnes
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Salz, Rich
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Michael StJohns
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… denis bider
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Richard Barnes
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Michael StJohns
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Paterson Kenneth
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Paul Wouters
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Uri Blumenthal
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Paterson Kenneth
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… denis bider
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Watson Ladd
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Melinda Shore
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Uri Blumenthal
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… denis bider
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Melinda Shore
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… mcgrew
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… denis bider
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Watson Ladd
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Paul Wouters
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Donald Eastlake
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Michael StJohns
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… mcgrew
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Tero Kivinen
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Tero Kivinen
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… StJohns, Michael
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] Time to recharter CFRG as a w… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [secdir] ISE seeks help with some crypto draf… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… mcgrew
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… mcgrew
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Ted Krovetz
- Re: [secdir] [Cfrg] ISE seeks help with some cryp… Benjamin Kaduk