### Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh

Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> Wed, 24 April 2019 17:49 UTC

Return-Path: <hallam@gmail.com>

X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com

Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com

Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BCE712009E;
Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:49:06 -0700 (PDT)

X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com

X-Spam-Flag: NO

X-Spam-Score: -1.648

X-Spam-Level:

X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5
tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25,
FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001,
HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001,
RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001]
autolearn=no autolearn_force=no

Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44])
by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
with ESMTP id XVfS3A34cFeX; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:49:05 -0700 (PDT)

Received: from mail-oi1-f193.google.com (mail-oi1-f193.google.com
[209.85.167.193])
(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits))
(No client certificate requested)
by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EE9F120117;
Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:49:05 -0700 (PDT)

Received: by mail-oi1-f193.google.com with SMTP id v7so15000247oie.8;
Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:49:05 -0700 (PDT)

X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20161025;
h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date
:message-id:subject:to:cc;
bh=JLs7u6n0BLda+NKMeHxRGEXqjKQHeTSuL5qvBZULy5Y=;
b=qKJB38gEvewNp2jk8Jxuv6DoZThNJpLir7P4vabtXiIt1EYnHsZe7JhM+9HNJQd3P0
gFetEmg8DIJi7xx0bkh+3/6R/jAxyn0Fp5sID+ayDDmJi0DigQp/w/bSWdtFVRD3EiCH
gb4tJVH2j6iByKM1zycK6C6KmnXztngOxQ46Ll9u7hFBk/5/vdouZJJKqUW3B8/PWo59
V/thnXEKAAA2jPkW9myBOClto6Wmbk7ECb65OP83NPWp6DeE88fzXPh9w2kJCmhJDedL
i3RcvHIVjnWfltXYUTPDairZ/73XelciquQjSbpD/g4CYE5nw2vcG5tooJ9Se1HDq3Kk
QFgA==

X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXhfJjfvQvzt47jR7enOQSARGQdTvhcuRdNleXNP1LiExpT5dFy
bxM/4KiXm4uQdbGVbOfodBC0I6b/ji5ptRbmmX0=

X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzte1uUtHyoA0sIWq6BkAkqbAvNSoWSqW4w+aFHDCQzkDEX3llRNWUNOoRJmh2a+IqOJHX05r56zFAZlmWkkpc=

X-Received: by 2002:aca:c68b:: with SMTP id w133mr221595oif.58.1556128144012;
Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:49:04 -0700 (PDT)

MIME-Version: 1.0

References: <CAMm+LwiF3iGiRO5reW4KCgf8vp=Kv=+4pD+_rGOcxEsD1Hxk4g@mail.gmail.com>
<20190422190302.GA3137@localhost>
<CAMm+Lwj1BV1=UQwE8-5tPO_mxOVixfkiUjXvu+U_AgnSzzkjvg@mail.gmail.com>
<CABrd9STVA=fT+oH7f4S_x8JQVaQRUJASWCY5g4pnhQL6ezWaHA@mail.gmail.com>
<CAMm+LwhEGTCG7Ucu7xiv0fYZHjxAhe5D6MdU6EYN4UTi0zLnrg@mail.gmail.com>
<CAG5KPzwr9oAP5270jE2N-Sw=d_g_YuhQ5_qB3W0OfggGrcU_qA@mail.gmail.com>
<CAMm+LwgCBAXqWspkgjGdUX-zUwEf7EtBCe8oiHYF2eoJMpR=Ng@mail.gmail.com>
<CAG5KPzxC09HFmR4YaGPPxZRene_ix=XWs02JVoWmiDRTSybvWA@mail.gmail.com>

In-Reply-To: <CAG5KPzxC09HFmR4YaGPPxZRene_ix=XWs02JVoWmiDRTSybvWA@mail.gmail.com>

From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 13:48:53 -0400

Message-ID: <CAMm+Lwjp9Ybn3TWp0xppEFXmD4mZB6RAs6cXvBpsSx5HxWPd+A@mail.gmail.com>

To: Ben Laurie <ben@links.org>

Cc: Ben Laurie <benl@google.com>, secdispatch@ietf.org,
IETF SAAG <saag@ietf.org>

Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003fbc1405874a514d"

Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/secdispatch/8dgAmbhnl6DO133-s1ORX40mk0Q>

Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh

X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org

X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29

Precedence: list

List-Id: Security Dispatch <secdispatch.ietf.org>

List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/secdispatch>,
<mailto:secdispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>

List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/secdispatch/>

List-Post: <mailto:secdispatch@ietf.org>

List-Help: <mailto:secdispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=help>

List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch>,
<mailto:secdispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>

X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 17:49:06 -0000

On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 12:52 PM Ben Laurie <ben@links.org> wrote: > On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 at 17:47, Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> > wrote: > >> But right now the situation is that it took me over 15 minutes to >> configure Thunderbird to use S/MIME. And I know what I am doing. It is a 17 >> step process that requires use of a Web browser and email client and >> multiple switches between the two. It took me another ten minutes to find >> the instructions. >> > >> When the current situation is that users are required to poke themselves >> in the eye with a sharp stick to get end-to-end security, it doesn't take >> very much to improve on that. >> > > I don't disagree with this, either. I do object, however, to assertions > that things are obviously usable. > My assertion was 'easier' not 'usable'. If a process has 17 steps and 16 are unnecessary, I don't need to do usability testing to know that it will be easier to use if we eliminate them. Well let me tell you what I am going to be doing on Sunday. I am going to be taking the scafolding out of where it is stored in the garage and building a tower in the master suite so that I can take down the #W$)(%$ Nest Protect device and update the WiFi settings to use a different WiFi access point after the old one was stolen. Someone obviously did a heck of a lot of user testing on the device but they never thought about the management and maintenance features that would be needed in the real world. I have connected my device to my WiFi network three separate times. Why does your product insist on tearing up my work and throwing it in my face? You control both the device and the app used to establish the connection. If you switched to using the Mesh approach, I would not need to repeat the process yet again. (And incidentally, the connection process does use QR codes and there is probably no need to change the user experience to enable use of a standards based approach) It is not just your company that has a problem with usability, Apple does as well. I have to go and help people configure the television because the Apple TV assumes that a person watching television can see well enough to read. Which might sound like a really good assumption until a 90 year old partially sighted deaf person wants to watch CNN. I would really like to be able to set out a control that has a limited number of buttons that directly provide the functions he needs but that would require a four or five figure investment in coding on my part. And the reason I brought up Apple and Nest is that they are produced by the companies that are the leaders in the usability field. But here is the thing, I don't think it was the usability testing that made the difference so much as the knowledge that the polo shirted one would have a screaming tantrum if someone had to climb a ladder to reconfigure a device whose very function requires that it be installed in the ceiling. The reason that the World Wide Web exists at all is that Tim Berners-Lee ignored the sage advice of the hypertext community that referential transparency was essential and pressed ahead with 'scruffy links'. Nobody did usability testing to decide whether the gopher or Web UI was the approach to follow until long after we knew the answer. My criticism of usability testing is this: we do not find out if buildings will stay up by building them and seeing if they fall down. That is exactly how it was done in the past which is why the Bent Pyramid collapsed during construction. Usability testing is the scientific approach. We should have moved past science and started practicing engineering. We should be able to predict with some confidence how users will react by applying principles learned from individual tests. Some classes of usability failure are quite easy to analyze. If a user faces two potential situations, case A and case B where one will lead to disaster and the other will perform the intended task and has no means of distinguishing these cases, the product is defective. Right now, I have no means of knowing if an email from my bank is actually an email from my bank or not. And that should be considered a problem. The problem I have with discussions of usability is that the argument is made that because we might not be able to serve every user we should just give up and never try to change anything. Like I said, if you want to propose changes to the protocol based on testing or even just based on advice from usability specialists, I am more than interested. But right now, the Mesh Reference Code is a command line tool and I am pretty sure that is not going to be the means of delivery that is most useful for end users. It is however the most useful means of delivery for people who want to build the Mesh into other applications and tools which is why we stopped developing the GUI tool and wrote the command line tool instead.

- [Secdispatch] The Mathematical Mesh Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Secdispatch] The Mathematical Mesh Richard Barnes
- Re: [Secdispatch] The Mathematical Mesh Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Nico Williams
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Nico Williams
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Nico Williams
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Nico Williams
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Ben Laurie
- Re: [Secdispatch] The Mathematical Mesh Michael Richardson
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Ben Laurie
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Ben Laurie
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Nico Williams
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Ben Laurie
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Ben Laurie
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Nico Williams
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Nico Williams
- Re: [Secdispatch] [saag] The Mathematical Mesh Phillip Hallam-Baker