Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quantum multi-algorithm PKI
Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Tue, 17 September 2019 18:44 UTC
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "secdispatch@ietf.org" <secdispatch@ietf.org>
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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 19:44:48 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quantum multi-algorithm PKI
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Hiya, Just to be clear that is not my position. On 17/09/2019 18:21, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Encode ASN.1 in CBOR (CBOR encoding rules for ASN.1) if we think the ASN.1 is > worth keeping, switch to CDDL if not. We probably need to keep the semantics. Seems like the semantics has to change with stateful signature schemes with wall-clock time expiry is no longer appropriate for public keys. Seems like the semantics has to change if N of M signatures must verify compared to 1 of 1, esp if some alg may become "dubious" for say a number of years before we find out that a break exists for that alg. (The dubious alg may be due to a QC attack on a classic alg, or, and maybe more likely, a classical attack on a new nad supposedly QC resistant alg.) Seems like existing x.509 libraries do not need to change, and nor should they. We'd be breaking them horribly if we tried to retrofit multiple algs/keys/sigs into x.509. Instead handle new things outside x.509, so as to avoid introducing significant vulnerabilities into what's now a more or less working system. And I dispute the urgency for authentication. Long-lived devices that cannot be updated in 20 years will be hugely vulnerable to things that are nothing to do with quantum computers. It isn't worthwhile trying to "fix" that now when it's too early to know what might or might not be a good plan for dealing with authentication in a world that has a working quantum computer - better to ensure those devices can be updated and then do the best one can as needs arise. The probability of a recall due to a vuln in a non-updatable device seems far higher than anything else here. Instead of all those bad plans - we should start to discuss what may be needed for authentication in 20+ years time, part of which would be quantum resistant algs. Another part may be an equivalent to CT which turned out to be needed due to certificate mis-issuance, so the discussion I'd be interested in wouldn't only be about quantum computers. (But would overlap with that.) Cheers, S.
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Dr. Pala
- [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quantum … Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Scott Fluhrer (sfluhrer)
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Secdispatch] [EXTERNAL]Re: Problem statement… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [Secdispatch] [EXTERNAL]Re: Problem statement… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Secdispatch] [EXTERNAL]Re: Problem statement… Daniel Van Geest
- Re: [Secdispatch] [EXTERNAL]Re: Problem statement… Panos Kampanakis (pkampana)
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [Secdispatch] [EXTERNAL]Re: Problem statement… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [Secdispatch] [EXTERNAL]Re: Problem statement… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Mohit Sethi M
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Ira McDonald
- Re: [Secdispatch] [EXTERNAL]Re: Problem statement… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Daniel Van Geest
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Panos Kampanakis (pkampana)
- Re: [Secdispatch] [EXTERNAL]Re: Problem statement… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Ira McDonald
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Secdispatch] [EXTERNAL]Re: Problem statement… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Ira McDonald
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Ira McDonald
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Douglas Stebila
- Re: [Secdispatch] [EXTERNAL]Re: Problem statement… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [Secdispatch] [EXTERNAL]Re: Problem statement… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Richard Barnes
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Ira McDonald
- Re: [Secdispatch] [EXTERNAL]Re: Problem statement… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Secdispatch] [EXTERNAL]Re: Problem statement… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [Secdispatch] [EXTERNAL]Re: Problem statement… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [Secdispatch] [EXTERNAL]Re: Problem statement… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Martin Thomson
- Re: [Secdispatch] [EXTERNAL]Re: Problem statement… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Secdispatch] [EXTERNAL]Re: Problem statement… Dr. Pala
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… John Mattsson
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Markku-Juhani O. Saarinen
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… John Mattsson
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quan… Benjamin Kaduk