Re: [Secdispatch] [EXTERNAL]Re: Problem statement for post-quantum multi-algorithm PKI

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Fri, 13 September 2019 14:07 UTC

Return-Path: <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
X-Original-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3478F120043 for <secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 07:07:36 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.299
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mnyszz4Y20Xs for <secdispatch@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 07:07:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94E3712002F for <secdispatch@ietf.org>; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 07:07:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F21BE3E; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 15:07:30 +0100 (IST)
Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SeNjyL55mAbD; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 15:07:30 +0100 (IST)
Received: from [134.226.36.93] (unknown [134.226.36.93]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 739ACBE2E; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 15:07:30 +0100 (IST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1568383650; bh=befHdCv/H7eyCfNczExKTQ5pD5XsUE+21nmV0ceKfSg=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=HEApt0XIeBrvK0X7NbcL418oZb8Q1ouOFhcn9i1amGhKHl+qimMR8+oUsuXOxnHms 9soC98/OSUx93otW6IvWbHNu6Jk8Iw3zCRLdtFyQySxkYnyFSUH+XiEZQVV2GezoFb PS/DsfSfFouLem2QIp9H89tcmNVCC6XRvtM5qg8s=
To: Mike Ounsworth <Mike.Ounsworth@entrustdatacard.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: "secdispatch@ietf.org" <secdispatch@ietf.org>
References: <2e753a7983bf40b490b4fcbb75550da3@PMSPEX05.corporate.datacard.com> <DD40B95C-CB99-402F-837C-C1A603EBDAAB@gmail.com> <23FA6A308F3F02C9.8f40790f-5eb6-454b-8b4d-384b9ac18637@mail.outlook.com>
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url=
Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw==
Message-ID: <23d741b6-073a-a6b9-4bc7-b68d94cbb5fa@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 15:07:24 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <23FA6A308F3F02C9.8f40790f-5eb6-454b-8b4d-384b9ac18637@mail.outlook.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="3ywJRBl81TGJFIdivAavhj2QbGIYrT6NG"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/secdispatch/fitXpFFY_dCvizWjHdHWTNHvy2Q>
Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] [EXTERNAL]Re: Problem statement for post-quantum multi-algorithm PKI
X-BeenThere: secdispatch@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Security Dispatch <secdispatch.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/secdispatch>, <mailto:secdispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/secdispatch/>
List-Post: <mailto:secdispatch@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:secdispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch>, <mailto:secdispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 14:07:36 -0000

Hiya,

On 13/09/2019 15:02, Mike Ounsworth wrote:
> Hi Kathleen,
> 
> I'm new to IETF, and looking for guidance. If an agenda spot in
> Singapore is the right next step to get visibility and discussion,
> then I'm happy to do that.

FWIW, while I'm not keen on Mike's particular proposal,
I would also support having a slot to discuss this a
bit. (On the basis that I might well be wrong, as often
happens, or to help tee up a bigger discussion if one's
desirable later:-)

Cheers,
S.

> 
> Thanks! -Mike
> 
> 
> 
> From: Kathleen Moriarty Sent: Friday, September 13, 04:42 Subject:
> [EXTERNAL]Re: [Secdispatch] Problem statement for post-quantum
> multi-algorithm PKI To: Mike Ounsworth Cc: secdispatch@ietf.org
> 
> 
> WARNING: This email originated outside of Entrust Datacard. DO NOT
> CLICK links or attachments unless you trust the sender and know the
> content is safe.
> 
> Mike,
> 
> Are you looking for an agenda spot in Singapore?
> 
> Additionally, it would be good to see discussion on list in advance,
> so thank you for posting your message.
> 
> Best regards, Kathleen
> 
> Sent from my mobile device
> 
>> On Sep 11, 2019, at 5:11 PM, Mike Ounsworth
>> <Mike.Ounsworth@entrustdatacard.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi SecDispatch,
>> 
>> This got bounced here from LAMPS because the scope is potentially
>> more than a "limited" pkix change, and because this needs multi-WG
>> visibility to decide on a category of solution.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Background / history --------------------
>> 
>> The Post-Quantum community (for example, surrounding the NIST PQC
>> competition), is pushing for "hybridized" crypto that combines
>> RSA/ECC with new primitives in order to hedge our bets against both
>> quantum adversaries, and also algorithmic / mathematical breaks of
>> the new primitives.
>> 
>> 
>> A year and a half ago, a draft was put to LAMPS for putting PQ
>> public key and signatures into X.509v3 extensions. This draft has
>> been allowed to expire, but is being pursued at the ITU. 
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-truskovsky-lamps-pq-hybrid-x509/>truskovsky<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-truskovsky-lamps-pq-hybrid-x509/>-lamps-pq-hybrid-x509/<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-truskovsky-lamps-pq-hybrid-x509/>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
Earlier this year, a new draft was put to LAMPS for defining "composite"
public key and signature algorithms that, essentially, concatenate
multiple crypto algorithms into a single key or signature octet string.
This draft stalled in LAMPS over whether it is the correct overall approach.
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ounsworth-pq-composite-sigs/>ounsworth<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ounsworth-pq-composite-sigs/>-pq-composite-<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ounsworth-pq-composite-sigs/>sigs<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ounsworth-pq-composite-sigs/>/<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ounsworth-pq-composite-sigs/>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
Now I'm taking a step back and submitting a draft that acts as a
semi-formal problem statement, and an overview of the three main
categories of solutions.
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pq-pkix-problem-statement/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> My Opinion ----------
>> 
>> Personally, I'm fairly agnostic to the chosen solution, but feel
>> that we need some kind of standard(s) around the post-quantum
>> transition for certificates and PKI. Personally, I feel that
>> Composite is mature enough as an idea to standardize as a tool in
>> our toolbox for contexts where it makes sense, even if a different
>> mechanism is preferred for TLS and IPSEC/IKE.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Requested action from SECDISPATCH 
>> ---------------------------------
>> 
>> 1. Feedback on the problem statement draft.
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pq-pkix-problem-statement/
>> 
>> 2. Discussion of how to progress this.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> PS I'm a new IETF'er, please be gentle :P
>> 
>> Thanks, - - - Mike Ounsworth | Software Security Architect Entrust
>> Datacard
>> 
>> _______________________________________________ Secdispatch mailing
>> list Secdispatch@ietf.org 
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ Secdispatch mailing
> list Secdispatch@ietf.org 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch
>