Re: [Sedate] Robert Wilton's Block on charter-ietf-sedate-01-00: (with BLOCK)

"Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com> Mon, 17 April 2023 15:51 UTC

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From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
To: Edward Welbourne <edward.welbourne=40qt.io@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Murray S. Kucherawy" <superuser@gmail.com>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, Justin Grant <justingrant.ietf.public@gmail.com>
CC: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "sedate-chairs@ietf.org" <sedate-chairs@ietf.org>, "sedate@ietf.org" <sedate@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Sedate] Robert Wilton's Block on charter-ietf-sedate-01-00: (with BLOCK)
Thread-Index: AQHZbgiSH1HFhn3080CLTLcJv6aqnK8pPnyAgAARiRCAACXCgIAAAe6AgABzZICAAKnVAIAADnvQ
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 15:50:55 +0000
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References: <168139109514.46960.10088188298946909806@ietfa.amsl.com> <695C8ED9-23F7-4B2F-8F41-D7EB1D0C49BC@tzi.org> <BY5PR11MB41960B6819E29607ABEC7497B5989@BY5PR11MB4196.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <C6FD09E5-496C-4CD1-9EC7-0F68C934AE9F@tzi.org> <2E71A8AB-632B-41EE-AA2F-D1B15B926BC7@tzi.org> <CACy7Cfj5hGWovD0iREepFZ-SFtk3Bw-ngKcuQnFHQ+pqP2K=wg@mail.gmail.com> <DU0PR02MB82180BC9308EE65B5E1B752087999@DU0PR02MB8218.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>
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Subject: Re: [Sedate] Robert Wilton's Block on charter-ietf-sedate-01-00: (with BLOCK)
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Hi all,

Thank you all for your additional feedbacks and clarifications.  Okay, so I am convinced that you are aiming to do the right thing here, and I'll remove my block.

I have a few further comments (probably not directly related to the charter):

(1) Is your plan to produce an RFC that updates RFC 3339 or do a RFC3339bis?  I would strongly encourage a RFC3339bis document that replaces RFC3339, since I think that will be easier for the external (specifically non-networking) community to absorb that the old format is obsolete, which they could easily miss from an updates document.

(2) Once the replacement draft is ready, is it worth the WG sending a liaison to ISO to make them aware of the proposed updated document in case they have any comments on it?  I'll leave that the WG, WG chairs, and responsible AD to decide if that would be worthwhile.

Regards,
Rob


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Edward Welbourne <edward.welbourne=40qt.io@dmarc.ietf.org>
> Sent: 14 April 2023 11:04
> To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
> Cc: Murray S. Kucherawy <superuser@gmail.com>; Carsten Bormann
> <cabo@tzi.org>; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; sedate-chairs@ietf.org;
> sedate@ietf.org; Justin Grant <justingrant.ietf.public@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sedate] Robert Wilton's Block on charter-ietf-sedate-01-00: (with
> BLOCK)
> 
> Justin Grant (14 April 2023 01:56) wrote:
> > Hi Rob, I'll try to provide a bit more context around the "Z" issue,
> > specifically around the existing practice that we're proposing to
> > codify.
> >
> > The core problem here is that the use case that -00:00 was created for
> > is an important use case: how can senders assert when the local date
> > and time in the string DOES NOT carry any information about the local
> > date and time?
> 
> This all boils down to the distinction between
> * A date-time expressed in the source's local time, with an offset
>   marker to tell you what that local time's offset from UTC was at the
>   time, vs
> * A date-time expressed in UTC, not because its source is in a place
>   subject to UTC as its local time zone, but simply because the source
>   chooses to use UTC (which is often a good choice).
> 
> In some date-time formats, that include an abbreviation [*] to indicate
> the zone in which the date-time is expressed, this can be expressed by
> using UTC as the abbreviation.  This would distinguish such a UTC time
> from GMT or WET, as local zone names that happen to have zero offset.
> 
> [*] Such formats are problematic as, in general, abbreviations are not
>     unique; there's a lot of redundancy - of the (seldom more than four)
>     letters, the last is usually T for time, another the first letter of
>     Standard, Daylight-saving, Summer or Winter, reducing the
>     information-content to one bit plus a letter or two, and that's
>     before we get into the ambiguities due to zone names being subject
>     to l10n, giving different abbreviations in different languages for
>     one zone, so that each of the world's many zones potentially uses up
>     several abbreviations, in a crowded name-space.  UTC, however, is
>     unambiguous.
> 
> In formats that use an offset suffix to indicate the use of a local
> time, indicating that local time's offset from UTC, Z has long been used
> (for "Zero offset", also called "Zulu time" from the radio
> voice-protocol name for Z) to distinguish "in UTC" from "in some local
> time whose offset from UTC currently happens to be zero".
> 
> 	Eddy.