Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Headers Unhealthy To User Privacy" WG
Chris Lewis <ietf@mustelids.ca> Sun, 06 December 2015 19:59 UTC
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From: Chris Lewis <ietf@mustelids.ca>
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Subject: Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Headers Unhealthy To User Privacy" WG
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On 12/06/2015 12:37 PM, Christian Huitema wrote: > On Saturday, December 5, 2015 10:52 PM, Ned Freed wrote: >> SM <sm@resistor.net> writes: >> >>> An attack on organization is a security issue; it isn't a privacy >>> issue. The privacy issue is about mail-related metadata which can be >>> collected by state surveillance agencies. Will the proposed working >>> group attempt to fix that? >> >> As I pointed out on the perpass list when the Received: field draft was > first >> posted, there are definitely privacy issues associated with Received: > fields, >> but metadata collection by state actors really isn't one of them. Why > bother >> with Received: fields when you can simply collect transaction logs from >> ISPs/MSPs. > > Ned, you are basically saying, "why bother plugging one leak when the same > data can leak somewhere else." Well, I think it is actually important to > plug all the privacy leaks, much like in security it is important to plug > all the holes. This came out of a thread started on the supposition that this effort was only aimed at pervasive monitoring by state actors and that all other aspects were out of scope as per RFC7358, including whether it was a good idea or not. 1) You can't fight state actors with protocol tweaks. If a state is interested in these headers, they simply have to order providers to ignore anything we do. They already have. 2) State actors have a much easier time of doing this at the network level than email headers. The great firewall of china and the big red "disconnect" switch makes such measures as proposed irrelevant. 3) At best this effort becomes a game of whack a mole, where the mole gets to scurry around unmolested while "we" take 5 years or more to swing the bat each time. 4) I agree that making general improvements to privacy is generally a good thing. But it cannot be if we artificially limit the discussion to areas where anything we could do hardly matters in the first place. Secondly, the results can be catastrophic failures if we refuse to acknowledge the drawbacks in other areas (operational problems, suicide prevention, handling of threats of violence, harrassment, or anti-fraud, anti-privacy violation efforts). This work cannot be done in isolation. > You are making the argument that authorities can commandeer data by imposing > on mail providers. They can, but in countries with decent rule of laws there > are limits, such as requesting probable cause and not going through fishing > expeditions. We have seen rogue agencies attempt to bypass these limits by > just taking the data whichever way they can, and we want to stop that. Yet, the best/most famous example we have to date is that of a country with decent rules of law, it was explicitly made legal, and that suppression of the source "address" equivalent (eg: callerid) wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference. Nor would it with the great firewall. I contend that relying on, say, a handful of illicit wire connects, sporadic access to relay logs, and/or "informer" recipients, is by its very definition not "pervasive monitoring", and is thus also out-of-scope by the article that began this thread. For our effort to be useful, the scoping has to be wider, as does the considerations of the downsides to doing it. I shall relate a highly relevant real-world experience: As part of the privacy investigation I mentioned in another posting, we were tasked at trying to track down a rather prolific sexual harrassment caller who seemed to have a surprisingly high level of intimate and accurate health/medical detail about the victims. Over the span of the investigation, we verified more than 1500 (yes, 1500!) of these calls by one guy, to as many separate individuals (well, subtract one, one woman was savvy enough to trick the guy into phoning again and taped the conversation). 1500 calls - one guy. The consequences of some of these calls were pretty damaging to the women and their families - some were quite traumatised. [The calls usually started out with the perp identifing themselves as a doctor asked to follow up on some sort of gynecological "issue" revealed by a recent test/procedure, scaring the women into believing that something was seriously wrong, and then getting their jollies by asking intimate questions about sexual practises and progressing to worse things. Very very nasty.] This was before callerid. I was in the interview where we solidly identified who it was doing it (after brainstorming between me, other members of the commission, and the LE tasked with running/supervising the effort) and asking a small group of female workers in the "common factor" office to see if they could identify the voice on tape. [I was and am still impressed by the sensitivity shown by the senior Detective Sergeant of the OPP who led that interview. The officer asked me to be there to act as a technical bridge between him and the office staff, and otherwise shut up and be a sympathetic listener.] It turned out to be a rogue insurance company employee inside a secured processing area harvesting the "to be shredded and incinerated" bins. Nailed the SOB and the calls ended. Callerid would have made it so much easier. I was never so glad as to see something as the wide-scale deployment of callerid a few years later. The same (occasionally strident and emotional) privacy arguments we hear now about MSA submission addresses were made then. Accommodations were made (facilities at threat, per-use suppression etc), and how many privacy advocates are tilting at callerid these days? Approximately zero. We already have the equivalent accommodations (tor, anon remailers, etc. etc. etc) that callerid developed! Harrassment calls almost completely vanished country-wide despite the fact that you could opt-out of callerid. Unfortunately, I fully expect them to have been on the rise again with the wide-spread spoofing of callerid that VOIP et. al. makes possible. Certainly phone spammers are doing it already. Be careful what you ask for, you might get it.
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for something Ted Lemon
- [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Headers U… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Heade… John R Levine
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Jim Fenton
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ned Freed
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Rolf E. Sonneveld
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Newman
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Steve Atkins
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Richard Clayton
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ned Freed
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ned Freed
- Re: [Shutup] chained authorizationm, was Proposed… John Levine
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [Shutup] chained authorizationm, was Proposed… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Al Iverson
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Steve Atkins
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Randall Gellens
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ned Freed
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Tony Finch
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Kurt Andersen (b)
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Hector Santos
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] real life privacy tradeo… John Levine
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] real life privacy tradeo… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] real life privacy tradeo… John Levine
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] real life privacy tradeo… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Derek J. Balling
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Derek J. Balling
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Simon Josefsson
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Derek J. Balling
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… John Levine
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Richard Clayton
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Steve Atkins
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Al Iverson
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Kurt Andersen
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Robert A. Rosenberg
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Al Iverson
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] real life privacy tradeo… Derek J. Balling
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… MH Michael Hammer (5304)
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] real life privacy tradeo… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Robert A. Rosenberg
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Robert A. Rosenberg
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for the… Hector Santos
- [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Headers U… SM
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Heade… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Heade… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Heade… Ned Freed
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Heade… SM
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Heade… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Heade… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Heade… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Heade… SM
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Heade… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Heade… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for something John Levine
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Heade… Robert A. Rosenberg
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for something Dave Crocker
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for something Martijn Grooten
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for som… John C Klensin
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for something Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Heade… Ned Freed
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Heade… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for the "SMTP Heade… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Shutup] [ietf-smtp] Proposed Charter for som… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Shutup] Proposed Charter for something Hector Santos