[sieve] On "reject" and :fcc

Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmail.fm> Tue, 17 January 2017 22:17 UTC

Return-Path: <brong@fastmail.fm>
X-Original-To: sieve@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: sieve@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BF8D1294B2 for <sieve@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:17:41 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.72
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.72 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=fastmail.fm header.b=nwpvXlli; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=ky7zEMZz
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Iwyp_wiu1vqu for <sieve@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:17:40 -0800 (PST)
Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com []) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 461AB1294A1 for <sieve@ietf.org>; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:17:40 -0800 (PST)
Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal []) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84C0C208F0 for <sieve@ietf.org>; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 17:17:39 -0500 (EST)
Received: from web4 ([]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 17 Jan 2017 17:17:39 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= mesmtp; bh=hwlMUUjzKizWH7nA5exwt0gnMVs=; b=nwpvXllicYIetebeo9OIa wGxlMnsSwLuF00ITbbvzSpdAVZjzxUxsbr+lC+FSqtmqnDQcYn5H4gFAfJpyHTrb g+czElbBkUioyLSEZtcXBMdSoJSFfdEYvQK8qAeqI5wIJlOkpcBtf/LKhAdnPDbz YzXr1bffD3Vg1IenzoOBr8=
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=hwlMUUjzKizWH7nA5exwt0gnM Vs=; b=ky7zEMZz6KYL6qRCrSUS/nvMN32vNTIps82w0RfzwPDYlI0dR+uXDNgas 5FDCYXp6aln3mxqyg+M3tZg+j6UOM/TtKftBWi4dDpnTjKstphkKllHGF1DOS5bF c+bNyOfuYZlg3qZlXY5SqKJGHxsjrRs6jpeuobjpfPNOHZqTHY=
X-ME-Sender: <xms:A5h-WHItUN-eF1ly9oF7hN2KrvceFRZICK_NTor5NkTLu0K9uSNkPg>
Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 99) id 678C5BAB48; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 17:17:39 -0500 (EST)
Message-Id: <1484691459.1802986.850940944.17135021@webmail.messagingengine.com>
From: Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmail.fm>
To: sieve@ietf.org
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface - ajax-fd047210
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 09:17:39 +1100
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sieve/RHbaNnW2sy_TV2-QuNZHbA_eNGk>
Subject: [sieve] On "reject" and :fcc
X-BeenThere: sieve@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id: SIEVE Working Group <sieve.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/sieve>, <mailto:sieve-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/sieve/>
List-Post: <mailto:sieve@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:sieve-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sieve>, <mailto:sieve-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 22:17:41 -0000

I wasn't on the list until just now, but it's one of my users who requested :fcc or similar.

> > A vendor that uses Cyrus IMAP has some customers that would like to have
> > copies of outgoing Sieve-generated messages (e.g. reject, vacation)
> > stored in their Sent mailbox.  We could obviously do this with a user
> > configurable option, but I was thinking of extending Sieve to support a
> > :fcc <mailbox> option on reject, vacation and any new actions where it
> > might apply.  The option could also leverage
> > draft-bosch-sieve-special-use to do something like :fcc "\\Sent"

> I see no problem for notify or vacation, but there's a serious semantics issue
> with reject - when you reject a message you are saying, "I didn't receive" this
> message". If you implement an action where you do in fact receive the message,
> albeit as a part of a DSN, you're essentially lying about what you did.
> Accurate information about who actually received what is especially important
> in environments with compliance archiving requirements. I don't look forward to
> explaining how a reject ended up being a keep.
> 				Ned

So don't lie if you don't want to lie.  I see things the other way around, if you want to
reject something then you want to reject it, but you might also want to keep a copy
of every email that's been sent out of the system on your behalf.

If your environment has compliance archiving requirements, then don't let users do
that.  If you're not allowed to keep copies of reject emails, then don't keep a copy of

It's quite possible to set up an environment where every email going out of the organisation
gets archived completely independent of the sieve engine, in which case you'd still be keeping
copies of outbound rejects.  Not even allowing this in sieve doesn't change the fact that people
might want to lie and not everybody has compliance archiving requirements.


  Bron Gondwana