Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, here's the changes
"James M. Polk" <jmpolk@cisco.com> Fri, 29 October 2010 00:45 UTC
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 19:47:41 -0500
To: "Elwell, John" <john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com>, "James M. Polk" <jmpolk@cisco.com>, "sipcore@ietf.org" <sipcore@ietf.org>
From: "James M. Polk" <jmpolk@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, here's the changes
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At 01:23 AM 10/28/2010, Elwell, John wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: James M. Polk [mailto:jmpolk@cisco.com] > > Sent: 27 October 2010 20:59 > > To: Elwell, John; James M. Polk; sipcore@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, > > here's the changes > > > > At 02:37 PM 10/27/2010, Elwell, John wrote: > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: James M. Polk [mailto:jmpolk@cisco.com] > > > > Sent: 27 October 2010 20:05 > > > > To: Elwell, John; James M. Polk; sipcore@ietf.org > > > > Subject: RE: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, > > > > here's the changes > > > > > > > > At 08:17 AM 10/27/2010, Elwell, John wrote: > > > > >I am happy to see that http and https are added as schemes in > > > > >locationURI. However, looking at 4.6, I am still > > uncomfortable that > > > > >SIP-, SIPS- and PRES-URI are recommended and but HTTP- > > and HTTPS-URI > > > > >are not recommended (by virtue of the fact they are only MAY > > > > >strength, for use when one disregards the SHOULD for SIP-, > > > > SIPS- and PRES-). > > > > > > > > well... this is a SIP document, why shouldn't a SIP-based URI be > > > > recommended? Do you want me to say HTTP:/HTTPS: is allowed in > > > > some other way? > > > > > > > > > > > > >We had an earlier thread starting here: > > > > > > >http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sipcore/current/msg03149.html > > > > >in which questions were asked about what one must > > support. The text > > > > >in 4.6 says nothing about what a LR must support. The > > implication is > > > > >that it either has two support all of the 5 schemes listed for > > > > >sending in a request, or it can choose which to support > > and reject > > > > >any that it doesn't support. > > > > > > > > right now it is the latter, but I would - if I must - > > propose making > > > > SIP:/SIPS:/PRES: mandatory if there is any URI scheme > > that is (again, > > > > this is a SIP doc). > > >[JRE] But the event package is [ID-GEO-FILTERS] and is based upon > > >RFC 3856, a SIMPLE document. Not all SIP implementations > > support SIMPLE. > > > > [jmp] Yes, but realistically - fewer will support HELD-Deref... > > > > >On the other hand, I can see benefits in this (ability to receive > > >notifications when location changes, plus filters). > > > > [jmp] I believe Brian wrote the Filters doc with that in mind (i.e., > > the benefits). > > > > >If the consensus is SIP/SIPS/PRES is the only mandatory one, I can > > >live with it. > > > > > >On re-reading 4.6, I see that, although the text "These schemes MUST > > >be implemented according to this document" is within the paragraph > > >concerning what you SHOULD place in a SIP request, perhaps it is > > >intended to include what MUST be supported on receipt too, so > > >perhaps it is OK as is, or perhaps it should say "A location > > >recipient MUST implement these schemes". > > > > [jmp] If we end up choosing a mandatory to implement scheme (or > > scheme set), then I think we can state that receivers MUST implement > > that scheme (set). > > > > [jmp] Do you (or others) believe this should be done regardless of > > any mandatory to implement sending scheme, or wait until there is a > > mandatory to implement sending scheme? >[JRE] What we want to achieve is that there is a certain group of >schemes (one or more) that, if sent by the sender, will be supported >by any receiver that supports location-conveyance. Assuming the WG >settles on SIP/SIPS/PRES as that group of schemes, I think the >present words get quite close to what we require. However, as I >mention above, the paragraph talks about schemes to send in the >request, so there is some ambiguity as to whether the "MUST be >supported" includes receipt or not. Hence my proposed word change above. If others agree, I'm ok with making LRs supporting this spec have to support a or a group of schemes. I think this will easily get facetime during the preso in SIPCORE to get high BW feedback too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >In practice, as pointed out on the thread, the schemes > > effectively > > > > >boil down to 2 mechanisms: SIP and HTTP (if we for now ignore the > > > > >absoluteURI option, which effectively leaves it open ended). So > > > > >perhaps it is not unreasonable to mandate support for > > all 5 schemes > > > > >(both mechanisms) by a recipient, although it does raise the bar > > > > >somewhat for recipient implementations. > > > > > > > > Several of us have and currently believe that is raising the bar a > > > > little too high. > > > > > > > > >I recall there was some interest on the thread in limiting to a > > > > >single MUST support, and some interest in that scheme > > being HTTP(S). > > > > >I am not sure we reached consensus on this. I don't have a strong > > > > >opinion, but we certainly need some text to clarify > > things one way > > > > >or the other. > > > > > > > > > >Furthermore, it is unclear which code to use in a 494 > > response when > > > > >rejecting an unsupported scheme - presumably the top > > level 400, but > > > > >that says nothing about why dereference failed. Even if all the > > > > >named schemes were MUST support (so you would never > > reject these), > > > > >there could be other schemes under absoluteURI that you > > > > would want to reject. > > > > > > > > The conclusion from the San Diego adhoc bof on this ID > > was to limit > > > > the number of error types to specific different > > actionable ones. At > > > > that adhoc, I had roughly 22 different error types, one > > set included > > > > the ability to indicate which URI scheme wasn't supported > > and which > > > > ones were. That idea was roundly rejected (most strongly by our > > > > newest co-author Jon Peterson). I believe it was Henning > > (and maybe > > > > Hannes) that wanted the error codes limited as well, and to allow > > > > this RFC-to-be to be extended with an XML body in the > > response that > > > > included a much more detailed error explanation and ways > > detailed in > > > > how to resolve the problem. > > > > > > > > No one has written that ID yet, so I don't know where that > > > > thought is now. > > > > > > > > That said, -04 doesn't have a 494 response articulated because > > > > location specific rejections are for the 424 (Bad Location > > > > Information) response. Jon and I talked just last week > > about what do > > > > we do when an LR supports one URI scheme and receives another URI > > > > scheme (i.e., supports SIP:/SIPS:/PRES: URIs but gets an > > HTTP:/HTTPS: > > > > URI). We couldn't come up with anything that didn't have a lot of > > > > holes in it, so we left it for now. > > >[JRE] Sorry, 494 was a typo, I meant 424. What sort of holes would > > >you have if you specified 401, say, as "URI scheme not > > >supported"? I guess one difficulty is what does the UAC do about > > >it, if it doesn't have the means for obtaining a reference with a > > >different URI. Was that the sort of hole you had in mind? > > > > [jmp] Jon and I talked specifically about adding a 401 "URI scheme > > not supported", but his point was "what does that really tell you?" > > and I tried to plead that it would mean that this scheme (set) (i.e., > > SIP based or HTTP based) wasn't supported, and to send the other > > scheme (set). His counter was that what happens when there is more > > than one scheme set to choose from, then what does a 401 really mean > > that a 400 doesn't already? I didn't really have a good answer for > > that one. In other words, if we're only ever going to have a choice > > between SIP and HTTP, then the 401 would work. Once you have a 3rd > > (or more) choice, it all falls apart. >[JRE] I would say that there would be a distinction between 401 (I >don't know how to deal with that scheme because I don't support it) >and 400 (which would include things like error response to the >SIP/HTTP request, or dereference yielded a location that I couldn't >interpret (unless that is a 100), etc.). I see the distinction, but to let you know, I'm not the one who really needs convincing among the editor team. Jon is fairly open about being opposed to have a bunch of error codes, but I personally think the list below is what I would do if it were up to me now. I think that is concise, has no ambiguity or room for error (pardon the pun). James >John > > > > > > The best way around this is to indicate which choice of scheme you > > want in the 424, perhaps this could become (Jon - don't > > hyperventilate!) > > > > 401 "URI scheme not supported - send SIP:URI" > > 402 "URI scheme not supported - send SIPS:URI" > > 403 "URI scheme not supported - send PRES:URI" > > 404 "URI scheme not supported - send HTTP:URI" > > 405 "URI scheme not supported - send HTTPS:URI" > > > > and just add to the list when someone wants a new URI scheme > > supported. > > > > James > > > > > > >John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > > > > > >John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: sipcore-bounces@ietf.org > > > > > > [mailto:sipcore-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of James M. Polk > > > > > > Sent: 27 October 2010 05:32 > > > > > > To: sipcore@ietf.org > > > > > > Subject: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, here's > > > > > > the changes > > > > > > > > > > > > SIPCORE > > > > > > > > > > > > I've submitted the next version of Location Conveyance (-04) > > > > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sipcore-locatio > > > > > > n-conveyance-04.txt > > > > > > and I believe this version has addressed each open > > item from the > > > > > > mailing list, as well as what was discussed and > > agreed to in the > > > > > > Maastricht meeting. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have attempted to identify each open issue with the specific > > > > > > resolution here (in no particular order): > > > > > > > > > > > > - Martin wanted Section 3 to be broken up into > > subsections, each > > > > > > revolving around each of the 4 diagrams. I have done this. > > > > > > > > > > > > - allowed a maximum of two (up from one) locationValues > > > > to be present > > > > > > in the Geolocation header value. The text however > > > > recommends against > > > > > > inserting a second value. This was agreed to in Maastricht. > > > > > > > > > > > > - Because we're allowing a max of two locationValues, > > > > they can be in > > > > > > separate Geolocation headers in the SIP request. This scenario > > > > > > necessitates bring a previous version's paragraph in > > > > stating that a > > > > > > 'SIP intermediary MUST inspect all instances of each > > Geolocation > > > > > > header before considering the routing-allowed parameter to be > > > > > > considered =yes', to ensure there isn't a conflict in > > the 'other' > > > > > > Geolocation header that states the policy is =no. > > > > > > > > > > > > - with the ability to add a second locationValue, it is > > > > necessary to > > > > > > warn against doing this (confusion at the LRs). > > > > > > > > > > > > - Added the "you break it you bought it" philosophy to SIP > > > > > > intermediaries that choose to insert a second > > location where one > > > > > > already existed, especially for inserting a location > > URI in the > > > > > > downstream SIP request. > > > > > > > > > > > > - Fixed the ABNF to handle zero, one or two (but no more) > > > > > > locationValues according to the agreement in Maastricht. > > > > There is a > > > > > > one-off use case which won't be in play very often, but > > > > is a WG item > > > > > > in ECRIT that several wanted to allow the possibility for > > > > (involving > > > > > > allowing one coarse and one highly accurate location in the > > > > > > same SIP request). > > > > > > > > > > > > - Paul K. wanted the use-case in which a SIP intermediary > > > > inserts a > > > > > > locationValue where one didn't exist previously, and > > > > received a 424 > > > > > > (Bad Location Information) to that inserted location, > > > > from having the > > > > > > 424 propagate towards the UAC (as the UAC might not know > > > > what to do > > > > > > with a 424). This is now covered in Section 4.3. > > > > > > > > > > > > - changed existing text to "MUST NOT" from "does not" > > > > about a 424 not > > > > > > terminating an existing dialog (just increased the > > > > strength of this. > > > > > > > > > > > > - I added the 424 to the table 2 entry in which the > > Geolocation > > > > > > header can be in only this response. > > > > > > > > > > > > - I added text stating the conditions for adding a > > > > Geolocation header > > > > > > value to the 424, to make it clear what is and what isn't > > > > > > allowed for this. > > > > > > > > > > > > - Martin wanted me to add back in the top level > > Geolocation-Error > > > > > > codes 100, 200, 300 and 400, which I did in section 4.3. > > > > > > > > > > > > - rejected the idea that the geolocation option-tag hasn't > > > > > > been justified. > > > > > > > > > > > > - Added RFCs 2616, 2818 and HELD Deref ID to the > > > > references section > > > > > > because I added the ability to include HTTP: and > > HTTPS: URIs, and > > > > > > stated if received, they should be dereferenced according > > > > to the HELD > > > > > > Deref doc. > > > > > > > > > > > > - changed the Section 5 examples how Martin wanted them. > > > > > > > > > > > > - Stated that GEO-URIs are not appropriate for the > > SIP Geolocation > > > > > > header, according to the discussion during the Maastricht > > > > > > Geopriv meeting. > > > > > > > > > > > > - we changed the privacy section, and included a ref to > > > > the Geopriv > > > > > > Arch doc, according to the agreement in Geopriv at Maastricht. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Comments are encouraged > > > > > > > > > > > > We plan to request (3rd?) WGLC during the SIPCORE meeting > > > > in Beijing > > > > > > (to give folks a sense of our plans). > > > > > > > > > > > > James/Brian/Jon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > sipcore mailing list > > > > > > sipcore@ietf.org > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipcore > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
- [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, here… James M. Polk
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … Richard L. Barnes
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … Elwell, John
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … James M. Polk
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … James M. Polk
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … Elwell, John
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … James M. Polk
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … Elwell, John
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … Richard L. Barnes
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … Peterson, Jon
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … Thomson, Martin
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … James M. Polk
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … James M. Polk
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … James M. Polk
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … hannu.hietalahti
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … hannu.hietalahti
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … Elwell, John
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … Elwell, John
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … Peterson, Jon
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … Richard L. Barnes
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … Elwell, John
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … hannu.hietalahti
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … hannu.hietalahti
- Re: [sipcore] Location Conveyance -04 submitted, … Elwell, John