Re: NSFnet-approved nets inside non-approved aggregate
Dave Morton <Dave.Morton@ecrc.de> Tue, 10 January 1995 12:46 UTC
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Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 13:31:37 +0100
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From: Dave Morton <Dave.Morton@ecrc.de>
Message-Id: <9501101231.AA07081@scorpio.ecrc.de>
To: curtis@ans.net, keith@pipex.net, peter@goshawk.lanl.gov, smd@cesium.clock.org
Subject: Re: NSFnet-approved nets inside non-approved aggregate
Cc: bgpd@merit.edu
>In <95Jan6.180317pst.5870@cesium.clock.org>, <smd@cesium.clock.org> wrote: > >> Having everyone in AlterNet who is not NSFNET compliant renumber >> is prima facie unworkable. Sean - I fully agree that it would be an impossible task - it is though, one of the alternatives you could have listed albeit the worst one. I am not seriously suggesting it as a solution - I doubt either Alternet or anyone else including the ISPs customers would be enthused..... >> AlterNet is probably the most paranoid of all NACR-submitters, as they >> will not submit a NACR without a letter from their subscribers stating >> the specifically acceptable things they will be using the NSFNET >> backbone service for, and they generally require the letter writers >> to do such things as list the NSFNET-using organizations they >> will be doing joint research with and so forth. > >Well, as someone who has largely inherited AlterNet's "prudent" >AUP-implementation policy, I think I can comment a bit here. > >> It would have been nice though if AlterNet had set its policies so >> that people who would agree to the NSFNET AUP would be numbered one >> way and the people who wouldn't ever do so would get numbered another >> way. However, The Way Things Are Done got in the way... :( > >> Perhaps a change in that approach to something like "letter first, >> allocate addresses next, then commercial routing and NACR" could help >> AlterNet avoid announcing further more-specific networks instead of >> aggregating people into a new pair of big CIDR blocks; one which is >> AUP compliant and one which is not and will not be. (Or maybe two per >> coast, or eight altogether or something). It's not perfect and there >> will still be changes, but it will help. > >This is simply not practical. It is impossible to educate a customer >to the point where they can make a rational decision about whether >they want/qualify for NSFNET access as part of the pre-sales >process, before number allocation. Quite often a customer will not >realise they need NSFNET access until after they have been connected >for some time, and then try and connect to an NSFNET site. Or they >start up a new project which qualifies them for NSFNET access. > >Asking them to renumber half-way down the line is not reasonable. I must agree with Keith here. If the customer is a large one with one or more class Bs he will simply refuse - what does one do then ? What has not yet been mentioned I noticed is the even worse situation of customers changing provider and thus splitting CIDR blocks. In effect its the same as AUP/non-AUP allocation above. This will also have an affect on routing table size - what to do in these cases ? >The only predicition that we have found you can sensibly make about >customer's NSFNET requirements, is that they longer they have been >with us, the more likely they are to have/want NSFNET routing. It is >possible this problem is more acute outside the US, where for >starters people have less idea what the National Science Foundation >is in the first place. > >I'm afraid *all* of these 142 overlaps are explicit and deliberate >announcements to ensure only AUP routes get through to the NSFNET. >I could withdraw them tomorrow if the NSF made the decision that it >is in the interest of the Internet to aggreate the AUP. > >In fact, I'll probably do this anyway, as it is quite clear to me >several of my European competitors are already advertising AUP >aggregates with non-AUP networks in them. Why should my network be >run with inferior practices and connectivity to theirs, never mind >the benefit to the community as a whole ? > >*Please* can we have a sensible ruling from the NSF or action from >MERIT, bending the rules a bit more for another 3 months can't hurt >as much as not doing so. I agree and second that, Dave