Re: [Slim] Proposed 5.4 text

Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> Sat, 02 December 2017 00:39 UTC

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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 16:39:02 -0800
To: Keith Drage <drageke@ntlworld.com>, slim@ietf.org
From: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Proposed 5.4 text
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Hi Keith,

The RFC Editor may decide to leave it or use two 
hyphens ("non-sign-language tag").

--Randall

At 12:16 AM +0000 12/2/17, Keith Drage wrote:

>  "Non" can only be followed by a hyphen. However 
> the hyphen relates it to the imediately 
> following the word, rather than any sequence of 
> following words.
>
>  Therefore syntactically you are talking about a 
> "non-sign", which is meaningless.
>
>  I gave hints in my mail to more appropriate English.
>
>  Keith
>
>  On 01-Dec-17 11:17 PM, Randall Gellens wrote:
>>  Hi Keith,
>>
>>  The document uses the terms "sign language 
>> tag" and "non-sign language tag", both terms 
>> applying to language tags.  Neither term is 
>> used in the absence of a tag.  The two terms 
>> are defined in Section 5.4.  I do not see why 
>> use of the terms is unclear or harmful, much 
>> less "entirely meaningless."  Along these 
>> lines, I don't see how the use of the "non-" 
>> prefix elsewhere is confusing or unclear; this 
>> is a very common prefix to use in Internet 
>> Drafts and RFCs.
>>
>>  --Randall
>>
>>  At 8:39 PM +0000 11/22/17, Keith Drage wrote:
>>
>>>   Why do we keep having to use this construct 
>>> "non-sign", which in itself is entirely 
>>> meaningless. Surely in this case we are 
>>> talking about a either the absence of a 
>>> language tag, or the absence of "sgn" within 
>>> a language tag. Why don't we just talk about 
>>> the absence of "sgn" where necessary.
>>>
>>>   As an aside I note elsewhere in the document 
>>> we talk about "non-emergency calls", which 
>>> should mean "a call for a non-emergency". The 
>>> correct opposite to emergency call would be 
>>> "call that is not related to an emergency".
>>>
>>>   There are several other "non-" instances in 
>>> the document that are equally meaningless. I 
>>> assume "non-realtime xxx" is not intended to 
>>> mean "unrealtime xxx", but rather, "xxx that 
>>> is not realtime".
>>>
>>>   Keith
>>>
>>>   On 22-Nov-17 2:17 AM, Bernard Aboba wrote:
>>>
>>>>   Looks good to me.
>>>>
>>>>   On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Randall 
>>>> Gellens 
>>>> <<mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   I agree.  I made a few minor editorial 
>>>> changes (e.g., moving some text to a new 
>>>> paragraph):
>>>>
>>>>   5.4.  Usage Notes
>>>>
>>>>      A sign language tag with a video media stream is interpreted as an
>>>>      indication for sign language in the video stream.  A non-sign
>>>>      language tag with a text media stream is interpreted as an
>>>>      indication for written language in the text stream.  A non-sign
>>>>      language tag with an audio media stream is interpreted as an
>>>>      indication for spoken language in the audio stream.
>>>>
>>>>      This document does not define any other use for language tags in
>>>>      video media (such as how to indicate visible captions in the video
>>>>      stream).
>>>>
>>>>      In the IANA registry of language subtags per BCP 47 [RFC5646], a
>>>>      language subtag with a Type field "extlang" combined with a Prefix
>>>>      field value "sgn" indicates a sign language tag.  The absense of
>>>>      such "sgn" prefix indicates a non-sign language tag.
>>>>
>>>>      This document does not define the use of sign language tags in text
>>>>      or audio media.
>>>>
>>>>      This document does not define the use of language tags in media
>>>>      other than interactive streams of audio, video, and text (such as
>>>>      "message" or "application").  Such use could be supported by future
>>>>      work or by application agreement.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   At 11:50 PM +0100 11/21/17, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>>>>
>>>>    Den 2017-11-21 kl. 23:08, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>>
>>>>    Based on the text and comments from 
>>>> Gunnar, brian, Paul, and Bernard, here is 
>>>> what I propose to replace section 5.4 with:
>>>>
>>>>    5.4. Usage Notes
>>>>
>>>>    A sign language tag with a video stream is interpreted as an
>>>>    indication for sign language in the video stream. A non-sign
>>>>    language tag with text media is interpreted as an indication for
>>>>    written language. A non-sign language tag with audio media is
>>>>    interpreted as an indication for spoken language.
>>>>
>>>>    In the IANA registry of language subtags per BCP 47 [RFC5646], a
>>>>    language subtag with a Type field "extlang" combined with a Prefix
>>>>    field value "sgn" indicates a sign language tag. The absense of
>>>>    such "sgn" prefix indicates a non-sign language tag. This document
>>>>    does not define any other use for language tags in video media
>>>>    (such as how to indicate visible captions).
>>>>
>>>>    This document does not define the use of sign language tags in text
>>>>    or audio media.
>>>>
>>>>    This document does not define the use of language tags in media
>>>>    other than interactive streams of audio, video, and text (such as
>>>>    "message" or "application").
>>>>
>>>>    <GH> Good, I hope that "non-sign language" can be an accepted term.
>>>>    I provide a slightly modified 5.4 
>>>> proposal, with a bit more consistent 
>>>> language in the first paragraph, and the 
>>>> mentioning of further work or application 
>>>> agreement reinserted. I think that is better 
>>>> than just saying that it is not defined. I 
>>>> also added the spoken language in video is a 
>>>> view of a speaker according to recent 
>>>> discussion in another mail.
>>>>    I really hope to find that we are converging now.
>>>>
>>>>    ------------------------------new text 
>>>> -------------------------------------------
>>>>    5.4 Media, Language and Modality indications
>>>>
>>>>    A sign language tag with video media is interpreted as an
>>>>    indication for sign language in the video stream. A non-sign
>>>>    language tag with text media is interpreted as an indication for
>>>>    written language. A non-sign language tag with audio media is
>>>>    interpreted as an indication for spoken language. A non-sign
>>>>    language tag with video media is interpreted as a view of a
>>>>    speaking person. This document does not define any other
>>>>    use for language tags in video media (such as how to indicate
>>>>    visible captions in the video stream).
>>>>
>>>>    In the IANA registry of language subtags per BCP 47 [RFC5646], a
>>>>    language subtag with a Type field "extlang" combined with a Prefix
>>>>    field value "sgn" indicates a sign language tag. The absense of
>>>>    such "sgn" prefix indicates a non-sign language tag.
>>>>
>>>>    This document does not define the use of sign language tags in text
>>>>    or audio media. This document does not 
>>>> define the use of language tags in media
>>>>    other than interactive streams of audio, video, and text (such as
>>>>    "message" or "application"). Such use may be supported by further work
>>>>    or application specific agreements.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>    Gunnar
>>>>    --
>>>>    -----------------------------------------
>>>>    Gunnar Hellström
>>>>    Omnitor
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> <mailto:<mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se><mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>>    <tel:%2B46%20708%20204%20288>+46 708 204 288
>>>>
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>>>> 
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   --
>>>>   Randall Gellens
>>>>   Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>>>   -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>>>>   Never knock the way the other cat swings.
>>>>                            --Neal Cassady
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
ondinnonk (ON-din-onk; Iroquoian; noun): the soul's innermost
benevolent desires.