Re: [Slim] Moving forward on draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language

Gunnar Hellström <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> Mon, 20 November 2017 21:19 UTC

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To: Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Moving forward on draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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Den 2017-11-20 kl. 20:19, skrev Brian Rosen:

> We’re not chartered to solve a problem like “what kind of information 
> is in a video: lip motion, sign language, captions?”
> I think when you signal a sign language in a language tag, we all know 
> what to expect.  If you put anything else in a video stream, we don’t 
> know what to expect, and this working group isn’t chartered to fix that.
>
> So, say that, and only that: “Use of a language selection in a video 
> stream could have several meanings, including the use of sign language 
> and visible captions.  If a sign language is signaled in a video 
> stream, it is interpreted as the indicated sign language will appear 
> in the video .  This document does not define any other use for 
> language tags in video media.”
<GH>Yes, except for "WILL appear". It may still be just an indication of 
preference or capability and not yet sure that it will appear.
Anyway, I hope you find the wording in my latest just submitted proposal 
also suitable.

Gunnar
>
>
>> On Nov 20, 2017, at 2:10 PM, Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com 
>> <mailto:bernard.aboba@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Paul said:
>>
>> "ISTM the real problem is with language tags in video media. These 
>> could indicate that the lip motions of people in the video reflect 
>> speakers of the tagged language. Or they could indicate written text 
>> in the specified language is embedded in the video. (Could be closed 
>> caption text or just signage.) Or (in the case of signed language 
>> tags) it could indicate use of sign language in the video.
>>
>> But in the end, if this is declarative about what is being sent then 
>> it isn't clear whether it is important. If it is an indication of 
>> what is being requested, then it is more important."
>>
>> [BA] Yes, that is the core of the problem.  As has been noted 
>> earlier, the modality isn't indicated explicitly. I'm not sure 
>> whether we have enough experience to know whether this represents an 
>> important deficit.  But we could indicate that the problem 
>> potentially exists and that further work might be needed.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 10:53 AM, Paul Kyzivat 
>> <paul.kyzivat@comcast.net <mailto:paul.kyzivat@comcast.net>> wrote:
>>
>>     On 11/20/17 1:41 PM, Bernard Aboba wrote:
>>
>>         [BA]  This is where the ground gets less solid - we don't
>>         really have a general mechanism for distinguishing spoken and
>>         written modality among non-signed languages. Perhaps we
>>         should just say "language tags in audio media indicate spoken
>>         modality and language tags in text media indicate written
>>         modality".
>>
>>
>>     ISTM the real problem is with language tags in video media. These
>>     could indicate that the lip motions of people in the video
>>     reflect speakers of the tagged language. Or they could indicate
>>     written text in the specified language is embedded in the video.
>>     (Could be closed caption text or just signage.) Or (in the case
>>     of signed language tags) it could indicate use of sign language
>>     in the video.
>>
>>     But in the end, if this is declarative about what is being sent
>>     then it isn't clear whether it is important. If it is an
>>     indication of what is being requested, then it is more important.
>>
>>             Thanks,
>>             Paul
>>
>>
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-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288