Re: [Slim] Proposed 5.4 text

Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> Fri, 01 December 2017 23:17 UTC

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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 15:17:29 -0800
To: Keith Drage <drageke@ntlworld.com>, slim@ietf.org
From: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Proposed 5.4 text
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Hi Keith,

The document uses the terms "sign language tag" 
and "non-sign language tag", both terms applying 
to language tags.  Neither term is used in the 
absence of a tag.  The two terms are defined in 
Section 5.4.  I do not see why use of the terms 
is unclear or harmful, much less "entirely 
meaningless."  Along these lines, I don't see how 
the use of the "non-" prefix elsewhere is 
confusing or unclear; this is a very common 
prefix to use in Internet Drafts and RFCs.

--Randall

At 8:39 PM +0000 11/22/17, Keith Drage wrote:

>  Why do we keep having to use this construct 
> "non-sign", which in itself is entirely 
> meaningless. Surely in this case we are talking 
> about a either the absence of a language tag, 
> or the absence of "sgn" within a language tag. 
> Why don't we just talk about the absence of 
> "sgn" where necessary.
>
>  As an aside I note elsewhere in the document we 
> talk about "non-emergency calls", which should 
> mean "a call for a non-emergency". The correct 
> opposite to emergency call would be "call that 
> is not related to an emergency".
>
>  There are several other "non-" instances in the 
> document that are equally meaningless. I assume 
> "non-realtime xxx" is not intended to mean 
> "unrealtime xxx", but rather, "xxx that is not 
> realtime".
>
>  Keith
>
>  On 22-Nov-17 2:17 AM, Bernard Aboba wrote:
>
>>  Looks good to me.
>>
>>  On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Randall 
>> Gellens 
>> <<mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>  I agree.  I made a few minor editorial changes 
>> (e.g., moving some text to a new paragraph):
>>
>>  5.4.  Usage Notes
>>
>>     A sign language tag with a video media stream is interpreted as an
>>     indication for sign language in the video stream.  A non-sign
>>     language tag with a text media stream is interpreted as an
>>     indication for written language in the text stream.  A non-sign
>>     language tag with an audio media stream is interpreted as an
>>     indication for spoken language in the audio stream.
>>
>>     This document does not define any other use for language tags in
>>     video media (such as how to indicate visible captions in the video
>>     stream).
>>
>>     In the IANA registry of language subtags per BCP 47 [RFC5646], a
>>     language subtag with a Type field "extlang" combined with a Prefix
>>     field value "sgn" indicates a sign language tag.  The absense of
>>     such "sgn" prefix indicates a non-sign language tag.
>>
>>     This document does not define the use of sign language tags in text
>>     or audio media.
>>
>>     This document does not define the use of language tags in media
>>     other than interactive streams of audio, video, and text (such as
>>     "message" or "application").  Such use could be supported by future
>>     work or by application agreement.
>>
>>
>>  At 11:50 PM +0100 11/21/17, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>>
>>   Den 2017-11-21 kl. 23:08, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>
>>   Based on the text and comments from Gunnar, 
>> brian, Paul, and Bernard, here is what I 
>> propose to replace section 5.4 with:
>>
>>   5.4. Usage Notes
>>
>>   A sign language tag with a video stream is interpreted as an
>>   indication for sign language in the video stream. A non-sign
>>   language tag with text media is interpreted as an indication for
>>   written language. A non-sign language tag with audio media is
>>   interpreted as an indication for spoken language.
>>
>>   In the IANA registry of language subtags per BCP 47 [RFC5646], a
>>   language subtag with a Type field "extlang" combined with a Prefix
>>   field value "sgn" indicates a sign language tag. The absense of
>>   such "sgn" prefix indicates a non-sign language tag. This document
>>   does not define any other use for language tags in video media
>>   (such as how to indicate visible captions).
>>
>>   This document does not define the use of sign language tags in text
>>   or audio media.
>>
>>   This document does not define the use of language tags in media
>>   other than interactive streams of audio, video, and text (such as
>>   "message" or "application").
>>
>>   <GH> Good, I hope that "non-sign language" can be an accepted term.
>>   I provide a slightly modified 5.4 proposal, 
>> with a bit more consistent language in the 
>> first paragraph, and the mentioning of further 
>> work or application agreement reinserted. I 
>> think that is better than just saying that it 
>> is not defined. I also added the spoken 
>> language in video is a view of a speaker 
>> according to recent discussion in another mail.
>>   I really hope to find that we are converging now.
>>
>>   ------------------------------new text 
>> -------------------------------------------
>>   5.4 Media, Language and Modality indications
>>
>>   A sign language tag with video media is interpreted as an
>>   indication for sign language in the video stream. A non-sign
>>   language tag with text media is interpreted as an indication for
>>   written language. A non-sign language tag with audio media is
>>   interpreted as an indication for spoken language. A non-sign
>>   language tag with video media is interpreted as a view of a
>>   speaking person. This document does not define any other
>>   use for language tags in video media (such as how to indicate
>>   visible captions in the video stream).
>>
>>   In the IANA registry of language subtags per BCP 47 [RFC5646], a
>>   language subtag with a Type field "extlang" combined with a Prefix
>>   field value "sgn" indicates a sign language tag. The absense of
>>   such "sgn" prefix indicates a non-sign language tag.
>>
>>   This document does not define the use of sign language tags in text
>>   or audio media. This document does not define 
>> the use of language tags in media
>>   other than interactive streams of audio, video, and text (such as
>>   "message" or "application"). Such use may be supported by further work
>>   or application specific agreements.
>>
>>
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>   Gunnar
>>   --
>>   -----------------------------------------
>>   Gunnar Hellström
>>   Omnitor
>>
>> 
>> <mailto:<mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se><mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>   <tel:%2B46%20708%20204%20288>+46 708 204 288
>>
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>>
>>
>>  --
>>  Randall Gellens
>>  Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>  -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>>  Never knock the way the other cat swings.
>>                           --Neal Cassady
>>
>>
>>
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>
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-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
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