IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: [Slim] Proposed 5.4 text

Keith Drage <drageke@ntlworld.com> Wed, 22 November 2017 20:39 UTC

Return-Path: <drageke@ntlworld.com>
X-Original-To: slim@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: slim@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AAD4127873 for <slim@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 22 Nov 2017 12:39:08 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.799
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ntlworld.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dNxK29Pf6oaV for <slim@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 22 Nov 2017 12:39:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from know-smtprelay-omc-5.server.virginmedia.net (know-smtprelay-omc-5.server.virginmedia.net [80.0.253.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E81A212EB61 for <slim@ietf.org>; Wed, 22 Nov 2017 12:39:02 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [192.168.0.10] ([81.97.229.170]) by know-smtprelay-5-imp with bizsmtp id d8ez1w0033hDt9d018ezoB; Wed, 22 Nov 2017 20:38:59 +0000
X-Originating-IP: [81.97.229.170]
X-Authenticated-User: drageke@ntlworld.com
X-Spam: 0
X-Authority: v=2.1 cv=Ku2wojiN c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=uMkRna9mZ6QJhuoPpEZIww==:117 a=uMkRna9mZ6QJhuoPpEZIww==:17 a=L9H7d07YOLsA:10 a=9cW_t1CCXrUA:10 a=s5jvgZ67dGcA:10 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=2XxDvuMUAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=PIZp1JHyTn1YxsQiDqgA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=r8V8T7LFwPy1_rBly1cA:9 a=AIL6ol6lhOnPS5YB:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=IfFLB24aErD9igj8xSD1:22 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22
To: slim@ietf.org
References: <55f2b336-3f14-f49a-ec78-f00b0373db00@omnitor.se> <CAOW+2dsZtuciPiKMfif=ZmUqBcUd9TyYtL5gPYDp7ZfLOHHDBA@mail.gmail.com> <p06240600d637c6f98ecc@99.111.97.136> <CAOW+2dv5NSiCbW=p1exvPV=PF8YCVdiz2gi-OCxmaUB-jGe22w@mail.gmail.com> <p06240600d6389cd2043f@99.111.97.136> <97d9a6b8-de3b-9f79-483b-18376fcf0ced@omnitor.se> <CAOW+2dtpRoeYkMJzX9vyNUojJDax4DQUU2F4PauBwt1sm-83Hg@mail.gmail.com> <6812d89a-ba10-0947-5320-07374b8c071d@comcast.net> <CAOW+2dtodRVOyGg_Q83TCPXwL3jBccA-hpBhYfrPCAUjSm5zkQ@mail.gmail.com> <E83689D8-DF61-4A3A-A5B2-8B3C05AFFB1E@brianrosen.net> <p06240607d63a5312bbbe@99.111.97.136> <72f7975c-91f5-91c2-6d8c-4f66aec63cf9@omnitor.se> <p06240609d63a644ec5b6@99.111.97.136> <CAOW+2dsP3EB8OogBU4NO917isBsOWs3VWbXK-AG88XhK7ROu4A@mail.gmail.com>
From: Keith Drage <drageke@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <85024248-d22d-6379-6194-fdb17c4c913a@ntlworld.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 20:39:01 +0000
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CAOW+2dsP3EB8OogBU4NO917isBsOWs3VWbXK-AG88XhK7ROu4A@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------30562DAC9FCBF17497B7C222"
Content-Language: en-US
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ntlworld.com; s=meg.feb2017; t=1511383139; bh=qq7d5nW2upoqXf0n7a2rBDs2RBdZDItJq7JQlgrQ/Gs=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=dJ5lGc3DxEqsYx30wRh+jkqN3qxn7p5st+s/3TObkcZcmCFbA63Z7YVqJ8uREibVO NpYZ7CoKYPAfXZwdM2R5mKd+ARYwt5Rw6mQjRNH2XgG+s0aVfBP1uvx+ezQif+u+9h WYZQ5Ip7OGV0wxJylhK/e8OLwc+RnUQR2TkWqxFC8//6nToWDgAkSPmXdy/v2ggiIc u9wHdCEFcv1Oan0YzlllSOw2MfOuQgbMuDaoMW2xFOyYST2Q7CXKFtqBBTHNUy2dOs Hm2QXJU9BBF4pqTeB5q+oWbVovCH7E0+qa8yBO9mumR8d3EI4TzddbyRCTI4ytLXvp ptgGhPPyq+LKQ==
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/slim/DdzQHdN3LaGgs6JKZqny3YNVn4w>
Subject: Re: [Slim] Proposed 5.4 text
X-BeenThere: slim@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: Selection of Language for Internet Media <slim.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/slim>, <mailto:slim-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/slim/>
List-Post: <mailto:slim@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:slim-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>, <mailto:slim-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 20:39:08 -0000

Why do we keep having to use this construct "non-sign", which in itself 
is entirely meaningless. Surely in this case we are talking about a 
either the absence of a language tag, or the absence of "sgn" within a 
language tag. Why don't we just talk about the absence of "sgn" where 
necessary.

As an aside I note elsewhere in the document we talk about 
"non-emergency calls", which should mean "a call for a non-emergency". 
The correct opposite to emergency call would be "call that is not 
related to an emergency".

There are several other "non-" instances in the document that are 
equally meaningless. I assume "non-realtime xxx" is not intended to mean 
"unrealtime xxx", but rather, "xxx that is not realtime".

Keith

On 22-Nov-17 2:17 AM, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> Looks good to me.
>
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Randall Gellens 
> <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org <mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>> wrote:
>
>     I agree. I made a few minor editorial changes (e.g., moving some
>     text to a new paragraph):
>
>     5.4.  Usage Notes
>
>        A sign language tag with a video media stream is interpreted as an
>        indication for sign language in the video stream.  A non-sign
>        language tag with a text media stream is interpreted as an
>        indication for written language in the text stream.  A non-sign
>        language tag with an audio media stream is interpreted as an
>        indication for spoken language in the audio stream.
>
>        This document does not define any other use for language tags in
>        video media (such as how to indicate visible captions in the video
>        stream).
>
>        In the IANA registry of language subtags per BCP 47 [RFC5646], a
>        language subtag with a Type field "extlang" combined with a Prefix
>        field value "sgn" indicates a sign language tag.  The absense of
>        such "sgn" prefix indicates a non-sign language tag.
>
>        This document does not define the use of sign language tags in text
>        or audio media.
>
>        This document does not define the use of language tags in media
>        other than interactive streams of audio, video, and text (such as
>        "message" or "application").  Such use could be supported by future
>        work or by application agreement.
>
>
>     At 11:50 PM +0100 11/21/17, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>
>          Den 2017-11-21 kl. 23:08, skrev Randall Gellens:
>
>              Based on the text and comments from Gunnar, brian, Paul,
>             and Bernard, here is what I propose to replace section 5.4
>             with:
>
>              5.4. Usage Notes
>
>              A sign language tag with a video stream is interpreted as an
>              indication for sign language in the video stream. A non-sign
>              language tag with text media is interpreted as an
>             indication for
>              written language. A non-sign language tag with audio media is
>              interpreted as an indication for spoken language.
>
>              In the IANA registry of language subtags per BCP 47
>             [RFC5646], a
>              language subtag with a Type field "extlang" combined with
>             a Prefix
>              field value "sgn" indicates a sign language tag. The
>             absense of
>              such "sgn" prefix indicates a non-sign language tag. This
>             document
>              does not define any other use for language tags in video
>             media
>              (such as how to indicate visible captions).
>
>              This document does not define the use of sign language
>             tags in text
>              or audio media.
>
>              This document does not define the use of language tags in
>             media
>              other than interactive streams of audio, video, and text
>             (such as
>              "message" or "application").
>
>          <GH> Good, I hope that "non-sign language" can be an accepted
>         term.
>          I provide a slightly modified 5.4 proposal, with a bit more
>         consistent language in the first paragraph, and the mentioning
>         of further work or application agreement reinserted. I think
>         that is better than just saying that it is not defined. I also
>         added the spoken language in video is a view of a speaker
>         according to recent discussion in another mail.
>          I really hope to find that we are converging now.
>
>          ------------------------------new text
>         -------------------------------------------
>          5.4 Media, Language and Modality indications
>
>          A sign language tag with video media is interpreted as an
>          indication for sign language in the video stream. A non-sign
>          language tag with text media is interpreted as an indication for
>          written language. A non-sign language tag with audio media is
>          interpreted as an indication for spoken language. A non-sign
>          language tag with video media is interpreted as a view of a
>          speaking person. This document does not define any other
>          use for language tags in video media (such as how to indicate
>          visible captions in the video stream).
>
>          In the IANA registry of language subtags per BCP 47 [RFC5646], a
>          language subtag with a Type field "extlang" combined with a
>         Prefix
>          field value "sgn" indicates a sign language tag. The absense of
>          such "sgn" prefix indicates a non-sign language tag.
>
>          This document does not define the use of sign language tags
>         in text
>          or audio media. This document does not define the use of
>         language tags in media
>          other than interactive streams of audio, video, and text (such as
>          "message" or "application"). Such use may be supported by
>         further work
>          or application specific agreements.
>
>
>         ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>          Gunnar
>          --
>          -----------------------------------------
>          Gunnar Hellström
>          Omnitor
>          <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>         <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>         <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
>         +46 708 204 288 <tel:%2B46%20708%20204%20288>
>
>          _______________________________________________
>          SLIM mailing list
>         SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>         <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>
>
>
>
>     -- 
>     Randall Gellens
>     Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself
>     only
>     -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>     Never knock the way the other cat swings.
>                              --Neal Cassady
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email