Re: [Slim] IETF last call for draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language (Section 5.4)

[Gunnar Hellström <[e-mail]>]

My proposal for a reworded section 5.4 is:

5.4.  Unusual language indications

It is possible to specify an unusual indication where the language
specified may look unexpected for the media type.

For such cases the following guidance SHALL be applied for the 
humintlang attributes used in these situations.

 1. A view of a speaking person in the video stream SHALL, when it has
    relevance for speech perception, be indicated by a Language-Tag for
    spoken/written language with the "Zxxx" script subtag to indicate
    that the contents is not written.

 2. Text captions included in the video stream SHALL be indicated by a
    Language-Tag for spoken/written language.

 3. Any approximate representation of sign language or fingerspelling in
    the text media stream SHALL be indicated by a Language-Tag for a
    sign language in text media.

 4. When sign language related audio from a person using sign language
    is of importance for language communication, this SHALL be indicated
    by a Language-Tag for a sign language in audio media.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This paragraph in 5.2 should be deleted because it is a duplication.

"   Note that while signed language tags are used with a video stream to
    indicate sign language, a spoken language tag for a video stream in
    parallel with an audio stream with the same spoken language tag
    indicates a request for a supplemental video stream to see the
    speaker."

Regards

Gunnar

Den 2017-02-14 kl. 08:06, skrev Gunnar Hellström:
> Doug,
>
> Thanks for pointing at the Zxxx script subtag for non-written content.
>
> I think we can document the use of it for the view of a speaker in 
> video media when indicated by a spoken/written language tag.
>
> I have tried before to propose to use the script subtag to indicate 
> written language, but got opposition because many languages have their 
> main script subtag suppressed. However, the language around suppressed 
> script subtags indicate that there are cases when the use is 
> appropriate. We  can document that text captions in the video stream 
> shall (or should) be indicated with a script subtag.
>
> But, to keep it simple, the use of Zxxx scrit subtag on the view of a 
> speaker should be sufficient.
>
> That could conclude the unusual combinations:
>
> 1. Spoken/written tag in video media, can mean to see a speaking 
> person, or to provide captions overlayed on video.
>
> When the intention is to indicate overlayed captions in the video 
> stream, the script subtag Zxxx SHALL be used.
>
> Otherwise, a view of a speaking person is indicated.
>
> 2. Signed language tag in audio media,
> means audio from a person using sign language, and SHOULD only be used 
> for rare cases when it has some relevance for language communication.
>
> 3. Sign language tag in text media.
>
> SHALL be used for any approximate text coded representation of sign 
> language or fingerspelling.
>
> I suggest that these conclusions form the base for a redefined section 
> 5.4.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>
> About my efforts to discuss modality in the language list: The list 
> was closed when I tried to subscribe or send to it, and I did not see 
> any response on a question I sent about how to get a discussion on the 
> modality topic.
>
> But I am happy now with your pointing out the Zxxx script. a 
> spoken/written language with Zxxx script is quite obviously not 
> written and not signed, so then it is spoken. Good.
>
> Thanks
>
> Gunnar
>
>
> Den 2017-02-14 kl. 00:10, skrev Doug Ewell:
>> Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>>
>>> But captions overlayed on video in the media stream is a used
>>> technology so it would be good to be able to specify it.
>>> That we cannot do it is again a sad effect of the language tags not
>>> distinguishing between spoken and written modality.
>> se-Latn = Swedish written in Latin script
>> se-Cyrl = Swedish written in Cyrillic script
>> se-Maya = Swedish written in Mayan hieroglyphs
>>
>> se-Zxxx = Swedish, explicitly not written
>>
>> "se-Zxxx, fi-Latn" = content includes non-written Swedish plus Finnish
>> written in Latin script
>>
>> Examples of multiple streams of content, such as video in one language
>> that is subtitled in another, call for multiple language tags. That is
>> not a shortcoming or failure of the language tag mechanism. See RFC
>> 5646, Section 4.3.
>>
>> All of this was discussed in the WG by the same parties.
>>
>>> I once had an ambition to try to specify a notation for that to be
>>> added to BCP 47, but did not succeed to get any real discussion going
>>> on the topic.
>>   I searched the ietf-languages archives and did not find any sort of 
>> post
>> or proposal from you. I forwarded one of your messages from SLIM to that
>> list in November 2015, expecting you to follow up with a proposal, but
>> nothing materialized.
>>   --
>> Doug Ewell | Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org
>>
>>
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>

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
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