Re: [Slim] Proposed 5.4 text

Keith Drage <drageke@ntlworld.com> Sat, 02 December 2017 00:16 UTC

Return-Path: <drageke@ntlworld.com>
X-Original-To: slim@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: slim@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45D14127078 for <slim@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 16:16:18 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.8
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ntlworld.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nb2UJhJFoeB3 for <slim@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 16:16:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from know-smtprelay-omc-2.server.virginmedia.net (know-smtprelay-omc-2.server.virginmedia.net [80.0.253.66]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD052124E15 for <slim@ietf.org>; Fri, 1 Dec 2017 16:16:13 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [192.168.0.10] ([81.97.229.170]) by know-smtprelay-2-imp with bizsmtp id goG91w00c3hDt9d01oGA07; Sat, 02 Dec 2017 00:16:11 +0000
X-Originating-IP: [81.97.229.170]
X-Authenticated-User: drageke@ntlworld.com
X-Spam: 0
X-Authority: v=2.1 cv=C4wUsl7+ c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=uMkRna9mZ6QJhuoPpEZIww==:117 a=uMkRna9mZ6QJhuoPpEZIww==:17 a=L9H7d07YOLsA:10 a=9cW_t1CCXrUA:10 a=s5jvgZ67dGcA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=2XxDvuMUAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=iylOpB4blVspMWrDtuQA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=IfFLB24aErD9igj8xSD1:22 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22
To: slim@ietf.org
References: <55f2b336-3f14-f49a-ec78-f00b0373db00@omnitor.se> <CAOW+2dsZtuciPiKMfif=ZmUqBcUd9TyYtL5gPYDp7ZfLOHHDBA@mail.gmail.com> <p06240600d637c6f98ecc@99.111.97.136> <CAOW+2dv5NSiCbW=p1exvPV=PF8YCVdiz2gi-OCxmaUB-jGe22w@mail.gmail.com> <p06240600d6389cd2043f@99.111.97.136> <97d9a6b8-de3b-9f79-483b-18376fcf0ced@omnitor.se> <CAOW+2dtpRoeYkMJzX9vyNUojJDax4DQUU2F4PauBwt1sm-83Hg@mail.gmail.com> <6812d89a-ba10-0947-5320-07374b8c071d@comcast.net> <CAOW+2dtodRVOyGg_Q83TCPXwL3jBccA-hpBhYfrPCAUjSm5zkQ@mail.gmail.com> <E83689D8-DF61-4A3A-A5B2-8B3C05AFFB1E@brianrosen.net> <p06240607d63a5312bbbe@99.111.97.136> <72f7975c-91f5-91c2-6d8c-4f66aec63cf9@omnitor.se> <p06240609d63a644ec5b6@99.111.97.136> <CAOW+2dsP3EB8OogBU4NO917isBsOWs3VWbXK-AG88XhK7ROu4A@mail.gmail.com> <85024248-d22d-6379-6194-fdb17c4c913a@ntlworld.com> <p0624060ad64791637c39@[99.111.97.136]>
From: Keith Drage <drageke@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <e51b9a78-87ff-3ff4-1a67-f5684081d85c@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 00:16:15 +0000
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <p0624060ad64791637c39@[99.111.97.136]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Language: en-US
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ntlworld.com; s=meg.feb2017; t=1512173771; bh=zfJYbo8GHsSE1eo0tBfGUQkAgGFuqJieV8H9skB2kOM=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=S2fryqUR2JadrMZbYUkmf1Xyk4Aa1Tfs4gabJ8b9mbBdOyuycJHTs8f0JbdlUAYsv bMfcbSfmbMsXVzOq5jZjYSh+PuguCnFfYj1hZ2dqWfP4OYxAgcKsWGdYgg1JqSznk1 mu70sr45ShNgJCo2qKpwJ51DGKy6bpcI9a2ZpVfkwtC4WJzIDFGZy+x8KAal4zBPc0 ZLQ/pGa1mHSN59mGQPt2lrYyP+ns14vupNXSDnKfsZNEfWACnOm19mGlXjzuOOaniC gWy59Li2qoHsDHZFS1OMa+05Hc5Cx+BQx918/KbmnXECcaPU6Rv1wU555ERumH/7yb WAhGSQ6hJhTuA==
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/slim/VZszsNhEQKAFStBz0IwXXUdGgCc>
Subject: Re: [Slim] Proposed 5.4 text
X-BeenThere: slim@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: Selection of Language for Internet Media <slim.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/slim>, <mailto:slim-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/slim/>
List-Post: <mailto:slim@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:slim-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>, <mailto:slim-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2017 00:16:18 -0000

"Non" can only be followed by a hyphen. However the hyphen relates it to 
the imediately following the word, rather than any sequence of following 
words.

Therefore syntactically you are talking about a "non-sign", which is 
meaningless.

I gave hints in my mail to more appropriate English.

Keith

On 01-Dec-17 11:17 PM, Randall Gellens wrote:
> Hi Keith,
>
> The document uses the terms "sign language tag" and "non-sign language 
> tag", both terms applying to language tags.  Neither term is used in 
> the absence of a tag.  The two terms are defined in Section 5.4.  I do 
> not see why use of the terms is unclear or harmful, much less 
> "entirely meaningless."  Along these lines, I don't see how the use of 
> the "non-" prefix elsewhere is confusing or unclear; this is a very 
> common prefix to use in Internet Drafts and RFCs.
>
> --Randall
>
> At 8:39 PM +0000 11/22/17, Keith Drage wrote:
>
>>  Why do we keep having to use this construct "non-sign", which in 
>> itself is entirely meaningless. Surely in this case we are talking 
>> about a either the absence of a language tag, or the absence of "sgn" 
>> within a language tag. Why don't we just talk about the absence of 
>> "sgn" where necessary.
>>
>>  As an aside I note elsewhere in the document we talk about 
>> "non-emergency calls", which should mean "a call for a 
>> non-emergency". The correct opposite to emergency call would be "call 
>> that is not related to an emergency".
>>
>>  There are several other "non-" instances in the document that are 
>> equally meaningless. I assume "non-realtime xxx" is not intended to 
>> mean "unrealtime xxx", but rather, "xxx that is not realtime".
>>
>>  Keith
>>
>>  On 22-Nov-17 2:17 AM, Bernard Aboba wrote:
>>
>>>  Looks good to me.
>>>
>>>  On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Randall Gellens 
>>> <<mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>  I agree.  I made a few minor editorial changes (e.g., moving some 
>>> text to a new paragraph):
>>>
>>>  5.4.  Usage Notes
>>>
>>>     A sign language tag with a video media stream is interpreted as an
>>>     indication for sign language in the video stream.  A non-sign
>>>     language tag with a text media stream is interpreted as an
>>>     indication for written language in the text stream.  A non-sign
>>>     language tag with an audio media stream is interpreted as an
>>>     indication for spoken language in the audio stream.
>>>
>>>     This document does not define any other use for language tags in
>>>     video media (such as how to indicate visible captions in the video
>>>     stream).
>>>
>>>     In the IANA registry of language subtags per BCP 47 [RFC5646], a
>>>     language subtag with a Type field "extlang" combined with a Prefix
>>>     field value "sgn" indicates a sign language tag.  The absense of
>>>     such "sgn" prefix indicates a non-sign language tag.
>>>
>>>     This document does not define the use of sign language tags in text
>>>     or audio media.
>>>
>>>     This document does not define the use of language tags in media
>>>     other than interactive streams of audio, video, and text (such as
>>>     "message" or "application").  Such use could be supported by future
>>>     work or by application agreement.
>>>
>>>
>>>  At 11:50 PM +0100 11/21/17, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>>>
>>>   Den 2017-11-21 kl. 23:08, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>
>>>   Based on the text and comments from Gunnar, brian, Paul, and 
>>> Bernard, here is what I propose to replace section 5.4 with:
>>>
>>>   5.4. Usage Notes
>>>
>>>   A sign language tag with a video stream is interpreted as an
>>>   indication for sign language in the video stream. A non-sign
>>>   language tag with text media is interpreted as an indication for
>>>   written language. A non-sign language tag with audio media is
>>>   interpreted as an indication for spoken language.
>>>
>>>   In the IANA registry of language subtags per BCP 47 [RFC5646], a
>>>   language subtag with a Type field "extlang" combined with a Prefix
>>>   field value "sgn" indicates a sign language tag. The absense of
>>>   such "sgn" prefix indicates a non-sign language tag. This document
>>>   does not define any other use for language tags in video media
>>>   (such as how to indicate visible captions).
>>>
>>>   This document does not define the use of sign language tags in text
>>>   or audio media.
>>>
>>>   This document does not define the use of language tags in media
>>>   other than interactive streams of audio, video, and text (such as
>>>   "message" or "application").
>>>
>>>   <GH> Good, I hope that "non-sign language" can be an accepted term.
>>>   I provide a slightly modified 5.4 proposal, with a bit more 
>>> consistent language in the first paragraph, and the mentioning of 
>>> further work or application agreement reinserted. I think that is 
>>> better than just saying that it is not defined. I also added the 
>>> spoken language in video is a view of a speaker according to recent 
>>> discussion in another mail.
>>>   I really hope to find that we are converging now.
>>>
>>>   ------------------------------new text 
>>> -------------------------------------------
>>>   5.4 Media, Language and Modality indications
>>>
>>>   A sign language tag with video media is interpreted as an
>>>   indication for sign language in the video stream. A non-sign
>>>   language tag with text media is interpreted as an indication for
>>>   written language. A non-sign language tag with audio media is
>>>   interpreted as an indication for spoken language. A non-sign
>>>   language tag with video media is interpreted as a view of a
>>>   speaking person. This document does not define any other
>>>   use for language tags in video media (such as how to indicate
>>>   visible captions in the video stream).
>>>
>>>   In the IANA registry of language subtags per BCP 47 [RFC5646], a
>>>   language subtag with a Type field "extlang" combined with a Prefix
>>>   field value "sgn" indicates a sign language tag. The absense of
>>>   such "sgn" prefix indicates a non-sign language tag.
>>>
>>>   This document does not define the use of sign language tags in text
>>>   or audio media. This document does not define the use of language 
>>> tags in media
>>>   other than interactive streams of audio, video, and text (such as
>>>   "message" or "application"). Such use may be supported by further 
>>> work
>>>   or application specific agreements.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>
>>>   Gunnar
>>>   --
>>>   -----------------------------------------
>>>   Gunnar Hellström
>>>   Omnitor
>>>
>>>
>>> <mailto:<mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se><mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se 
>>>
>>>   <tel:%2B46%20708%20204%20288>+46 708 204 288
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>   SLIM mailing list
>>>   <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>SLIM@ietf.org
>>>
>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>>  Randall Gellens
>>>  Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself 
>>> only
>>>  -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>>>  Never knock the way the other cat swings.
>>>                           --Neal Cassady
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  SLIM mailing list
>>>  <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>SLIM@ietf.org
>>>
>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim 
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  SLIM mailing list
>>  SLIM@ietf.org
>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>
>