Re: [Slim] Proposed 5.4 text

[Keith Drage <[e-mail]>]

"Non" can only be followed by a hyphen. However the hyphen relates it to 
the imediately following the word, rather than any sequence of following 
words.

Therefore syntactically you are talking about a "non-sign", which is 
meaningless.

I gave hints in my mail to more appropriate English.

Keith

On 01-Dec-17 11:17 PM, Randall Gellens wrote:
> Hi Keith,
>
> The document uses the terms "sign language tag" and "non-sign language 
> tag", both terms applying to language tags.  Neither term is used in 
> the absence of a tag.  The two terms are defined in Section 5.4.  I do 
> not see why use of the terms is unclear or harmful, much less 
> "entirely meaningless."  Along these lines, I don't see how the use of 
> the "non-" prefix elsewhere is confusing or unclear; this is a very 
> common prefix to use in Internet Drafts and RFCs.
>
> --Randall
>
> At 8:39 PM +0000 11/22/17, Keith Drage wrote:
>
>>  Why do we keep having to use this construct "non-sign", which in 
>> itself is entirely meaningless. Surely in this case we are talking 
>> about a either the absence of a language tag, or the absence of "sgn" 
>> within a language tag. Why don't we just talk about the absence of 
>> "sgn" where necessary.
>>
>>  As an aside I note elsewhere in the document we talk about 
>> "non-emergency calls", which should mean "a call for a 
>> non-emergency". The correct opposite to emergency call would be "call 
>> that is not related to an emergency".
>>
>>  There are several other "non-" instances in the document that are 
>> equally meaningless. I assume "non-realtime xxx" is not intended to 
>> mean "unrealtime xxx", but rather, "xxx that is not realtime".
>>
>>  Keith
>>
>>  On 22-Nov-17 2:17 AM, Bernard Aboba wrote:
>>
>>>  Looks good to me.
>>>
>>>  On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Randall Gellens 
>>> <<mailto:[e-mail]>[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>
>>>  I agree.  I made a few minor editorial changes (e.g., moving some 
>>> text to a new paragraph):
>>>
>>>  5.4.  Usage Notes
>>>
>>>     A sign language tag with a video media stream is interpreted as an
>>>     indication for sign language in the video stream.  A non-sign
>>>     language tag with a text media stream is interpreted as an
>>>     indication for written language in the text stream.  A non-sign
>>>     language tag with an audio media stream is interpreted as an
>>>     indication for spoken language in the audio stream.
>>>
>>>     This document does not define any other use for language tags in
>>>     video media (such as how to indicate visible captions in the video
>>>     stream).
>>>
>>>     In the IANA registry of language subtags per BCP 47 [RFC5646], a
>>>     language subtag with a Type field "extlang" combined with a Prefix
>>>     field value "sgn" indicates a sign language tag.  The absense of
>>>     such "sgn" prefix indicates a non-sign language tag.
>>>
>>>     This document does not define the use of sign language tags in text
>>>     or audio media.
>>>
>>>     This document does not define the use of language tags in media
>>>     other than interactive streams of audio, video, and text (such as
>>>     "message" or "application").  Such use could be supported by future
>>>     work or by application agreement.
>>>
>>>
>>>  At 11:50 PM +0100 11/21/17, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>>>
>>>   Den 2017-11-21 kl. 23:08, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>
>>>   Based on the text and comments from Gunnar, brian, Paul, and 
>>> Bernard, here is what I propose to replace section 5.4 with:
>>>
>>>   5.4. Usage Notes
>>>
>>>   A sign language tag with a video stream is interpreted as an
>>>   indication for sign language in the video stream. A non-sign
>>>   language tag with text media is interpreted as an indication for
>>>   written language. A non-sign language tag with audio media is
>>>   interpreted as an indication for spoken language.
>>>
>>>   In the IANA registry of language subtags per BCP 47 [RFC5646], a
>>>   language subtag with a Type field "extlang" combined with a Prefix
>>>   field value "sgn" indicates a sign language tag. The absense of
>>>   such "sgn" prefix indicates a non-sign language tag. This document
>>>   does not define any other use for language tags in video media
>>>   (such as how to indicate visible captions).
>>>
>>>   This document does not define the use of sign language tags in text
>>>   or audio media.
>>>
>>>   This document does not define the use of language tags in media
>>>   other than interactive streams of audio, video, and text (such as
>>>   "message" or "application").
>>>
>>>   <GH> Good, I hope that "non-sign language" can be an accepted term.
>>>   I provide a slightly modified 5.4 proposal, with a bit more 
>>> consistent language in the first paragraph, and the mentioning of 
>>> further work or application agreement reinserted. I think that is 
>>> better than just saying that it is not defined. I also added the 
>>> spoken language in video is a view of a speaker according to recent 
>>> discussion in another mail.
>>>   I really hope to find that we are converging now.
>>>
>>>   ------------------------------new text 
>>> -------------------------------------------
>>>   5.4 Media, Language and Modality indications
>>>
>>>   A sign language tag with video media is interpreted as an
>>>   indication for sign language in the video stream. A non-sign
>>>   language tag with text media is interpreted as an indication for
>>>   written language. A non-sign language tag with audio media is
>>>   interpreted as an indication for spoken language. A non-sign
>>>   language tag with video media is interpreted as a view of a
>>>   speaking person. This document does not define any other
>>>   use for language tags in video media (such as how to indicate
>>>   visible captions in the video stream).
>>>
>>>   In the IANA registry of language subtags per BCP 47 [RFC5646], a
>>>   language subtag with a Type field "extlang" combined with a Prefix
>>>   field value "sgn" indicates a sign language tag. The absense of
>>>   such "sgn" prefix indicates a non-sign language tag.
>>>
>>>   This document does not define the use of sign language tags in text
>>>   or audio media. This document does not define the use of language 
>>> tags in media
>>>   other than interactive streams of audio, video, and text (such as
>>>   "message" or "application"). Such use may be supported by further 
>>> work
>>>   or application specific agreements.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>
>>>   Gunnar
>>>   --
>>>   -----------------------------------------
>>>   Gunnar Hellström
>>>   Omnitor
>>>
>>>
>>> <mailto:<mailto:[e-mail]>[e-mail]><mailto:[e-mail]>[e-mail] 
>>>
>>>   <tel:%2B46%20708%20204%20288>[phone]
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>>  Randall Gellens
>>>  Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself 
>>> only
>>>  -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>>>  Never knock the way the other cat swings.
>>>                           --Neal Cassady
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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