Re: [Slim] Proposed 5.4 text

Gunnar Hellström <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> Wed, 22 November 2017 16:03 UTC

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To: Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com>
Cc: slim@ietf.org, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>, Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>, Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net>
References: <55f2b336-3f14-f49a-ec78-f00b0373db00@omnitor.se> <CAOW+2dsZtuciPiKMfif=ZmUqBcUd9TyYtL5gPYDp7ZfLOHHDBA@mail.gmail.com> <p06240600d637c6f98ecc@99.111.97.136> <CAOW+2dv5NSiCbW=p1exvPV=PF8YCVdiz2gi-OCxmaUB-jGe22w@mail.gmail.com> <p06240600d6389cd2043f@99.111.97.136> <97d9a6b8-de3b-9f79-483b-18376fcf0ced@omnitor.se> <CAOW+2dtpRoeYkMJzX9vyNUojJDax4DQUU2F4PauBwt1sm-83Hg@mail.gmail.com> <6812d89a-ba10-0947-5320-07374b8c071d@comcast.net> <CAOW+2dtodRVOyGg_Q83TCPXwL3jBccA-hpBhYfrPCAUjSm5zkQ@mail.gmail.com> <E83689D8-DF61-4A3A-A5B2-8B3C05AFFB1E@brianrosen.net> <p06240607d63a5312bbbe@99.111.97.136> <72f7975c-91f5-91c2-6d8c-4f66aec63cf9@omnitor.se> <p06240609d63a644ec5b6@99.111.97.136> <CAOW+2dsP3EB8OogBU4NO917isBsOWs3VWbXK-AG88XhK7ROu4A@mail.gmail.com> <c1c24d1b-5dcc-4f55-2100-1c4d70a6e49f@omnitor.se> <CAOW+2duBgh7znEn0_bEqUhsWLrB9=8ndeDr+3j+JPnbAanvGkg@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Proposed 5.4 text
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Den 2017-11-22 kl. 08:17, skrev Bernard Aboba:
> Gunnar said:
>
> "A non-sign language tag with video media is interpreted as a view of 
> a speaking person"
>
> [BA] I believe that Paul pointed out that such a need can be met by 
> asking for audio with the non-sign language tag and RFC 5888 lip sync 
> grouping, with no language tag for the video.
<GH>But I explained  in later mail that the LipSync grouping is a 
technical mechanism that is not expected to be set and unset depending 
on users desire to use lip reading or not. It will likely be always 
active for products using that feature for providing good sync 
regardless of what the users plan to use the video for. So, it is not 
what we want.

What we want is an indication that the user is prepared / desires to 
have the view of a speaking person in video.
We can just define that usage of hlang in video media with non-sign 
language tags, and not relate it to any use of the audio channel 
language. ( as the dropped sentence does.)  So, please reinsert the 
dropped sentence.

  Gunnar
>
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 10:53 PM, Gunnar Hellström 
> <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>> wrote:
>
>     Randall,
>
>     1. You dropped one sentence from the first paragraph in my latest
>     proposal:
>
>     "A non-sign language tag with video media is interpreted as a view
>     of a
>      speaking person."
>
>     It was a result of the previous discussion and reasoning, and I
>     think it should be reinserted.
>
>     2. You also changed the title proposal from " 5.4 Media, Language
>     and Modality indications" to "5.4 Usage Notes"
>
>     I think it is better to have a title that tells about the topic of
>     the paragraph. I suggest to use the title I proposed, but I can
>     accept yours if you have a good reason for the change.
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     Gunnar
>
>
>     Den 2017-11-22 kl. 03:17, skrev Bernard Aboba:
>>     Looks good to me.
>>
>>     On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Randall Gellens
>>     <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org <mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>> wrote:
>>
>>         I agree.  I made a few minor editorial changes (e.g., moving
>>         some text to a new paragraph):
>>
>>         5.4.  Usage Notes
>>
>>            A sign language tag with a video media stream is
>>         interpreted as an
>>            indication for sign language in the video stream.  A non-sign
>>            language tag with a text media stream is interpreted as an
>>            indication for written language in the text stream.  A
>>         non-sign
>>            language tag with an audio media stream is interpreted as an
>>            indication for spoken language in the audio stream.
>>
>>            This document does not define any other use for language
>>         tags in
>>            video media (such as how to indicate visible captions in
>>         the video
>>            stream).
>>
>>            In the IANA registry of language subtags per BCP 47
>>         [RFC5646], a
>>            language subtag with a Type field "extlang" combined with
>>         a Prefix
>>            field value "sgn" indicates a sign language tag.  The
>>         absense of
>>            such "sgn" prefix indicates a non-sign language tag.
>>
>>            This document does not define the use of sign language
>>         tags in text
>>            or audio media.
>>
>>            This document does not define the use of language tags in
>>         media
>>            other than interactive streams of audio, video, and text
>>         (such as
>>            "message" or "application").  Such use could be supported
>>         by future
>>            work or by application agreement.
>>
>>
>>         At 11:50 PM +0100 11/21/17, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>>
>>              Den 2017-11-21 kl. 23:08, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>
>>                  Based on the text and comments from Gunnar, brian,
>>                 Paul, and Bernard, here is what I propose to replace
>>                 section 5.4 with:
>>
>>                  5.4. Usage Notes
>>
>>                  A sign language tag with a video stream is
>>                 interpreted as an
>>                  indication for sign language in the video stream. A
>>                 non-sign
>>                  language tag with text media is interpreted as an
>>                 indication for
>>                  written language. A non-sign language tag with audio
>>                 media is
>>                  interpreted as an indication for spoken language.
>>
>>                  In the IANA registry of language subtags per BCP 47
>>                 [RFC5646], a
>>                  language subtag with a Type field "extlang" combined
>>                 with a Prefix
>>                  field value "sgn" indicates a sign language tag. The
>>                 absense of
>>                  such "sgn" prefix indicates a non-sign language tag.
>>                 This document
>>                  does not define any other use for language tags in
>>                 video media
>>                  (such as how to indicate visible captions).
>>
>>                  This document does not define the use of sign
>>                 language tags in text
>>                  or audio media.
>>
>>                  This document does not define the use of language
>>                 tags in media
>>                  other than interactive streams of audio, video, and
>>                 text (such as
>>                  "message" or "application").
>>
>>              <GH> Good, I hope that "non-sign language" can be an
>>             accepted term.
>>              I provide a slightly modified 5.4 proposal, with a bit
>>             more consistent language in the first paragraph, and the
>>             mentioning of further work or application agreement
>>             reinserted. I think that is better than just saying that
>>             it is not defined. I also added the spoken language in
>>             video is a view of a speaker according to recent
>>             discussion in another mail.
>>              I really hope to find that we are converging now.
>>
>>              ------------------------------new text
>>             -------------------------------------------
>>              5.4 Media, Language and Modality indications
>>
>>              A sign language tag with video media is interpreted as an
>>              indication for sign language in the video stream. A non-sign
>>              language tag with text media is interpreted as an
>>             indication for
>>              written language. A non-sign language tag with audio
>>             media is
>>              interpreted as an indication for spoken language. A non-sign
>>              language tag with video media is interpreted as a view of a
>>              speaking person. This document does not define any other
>>              use for language tags in video media (such as how to
>>             indicate
>>              visible captions in the video stream).
>>
>>              In the IANA registry of language subtags per BCP 47
>>             [RFC5646], a
>>              language subtag with a Type field "extlang" combined
>>             with a Prefix
>>              field value "sgn" indicates a sign language tag. The
>>             absense of
>>              such "sgn" prefix indicates a non-sign language tag.
>>
>>              This document does not define the use of sign language
>>             tags in text
>>              or audio media. This document does not define the use of
>>             language tags in media
>>              other than interactive streams of audio, video, and text
>>             (such as
>>              "message" or "application"). Such use may be supported
>>             by further work
>>              or application specific agreements.
>>
>>
>>             ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>              Gunnar
>>              --
>>              -----------------------------------------
>>              Gunnar Hellström
>>              Omnitor
>>              <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>             <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>             <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
>>             +46 708 204 288 <tel:%2B46%20708%20204%20288>
>>
>>              _______________________________________________
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>>             <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>
>>
>>
>>
>>         -- 
>>         Randall Gellens
>>         Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for
>>         myself only
>>         -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>>         Never knock the way the other cat swings.
>>                                  --Neal Cassady
>>
>>
>
>     -- 
>     -----------------------------------------
>     Gunnar Hellström
>     Omnitor
>     gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
>     +46 708 204 288
>
>
>
>
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-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288