Re: [Slim] Negotiation issue in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
"Randall Gellens" <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> Mon, 19 February 2018 03:20 UTC
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From: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
To: Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com>
Cc: Gunnar Hellström <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>, slim@ietf.org
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 19:20:36 -0800
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Negotiation issue in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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On 18 Feb 2018, at 11:56, Bernard Aboba wrote: > The fact that Answers containing “pointless confusion” are allowed > means that implementations need to be prepared to handle these edge > cases. I see no benefit arising from this. In that case, let’s move forward with the draft as-is, which does only permits one language in the answer. > Why not require that an Answer place mutually supported language(s) > before languages only supported by the Answerer? In what situations > would it be necessary to do something else? I don’t think it’s necessary, because we don’t expect non-offered languages to be in an answer except in unusual edge cases. —Randall > >> On Feb 18, 2018, at 10:40 AM, Randall Gellens >> <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote: >> >> We don't expect an answer to contain a non-offered language except in >> unusual cases. What's in an answer is decided by policies at the >> answerer. I don't think we need to get into an exercise of trying to >> describe what is permitted vs forbidden for such edge cases. I think >> we can assume that the people who create the policies want to enable >> communication and not sow pointless confusion. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Feb 18, 2018, at 11:27 PM, Bernard Aboba >>> <bernard.aboba@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Gunnar said: >>> >>> "That will happen if you decide to answer with a language that was >>> not in the offer. But it is better than answering with no language >>> indication and it indicates how you might answer the call." >>> >>> [BA] I understand how an Answerer could respond only with >>> language(s) not in the Offer. But if the Answerer can support some >>> of the offered languages, what are the restrictions on non-offered >>> languages? >>> Can an Answerer put a non-offered language first in the preference >>> list and an offered language in a less preferred position? Should >>> it be able to include a non-offered language at all? If you offer >>> English and >>> Swedish and receive an Answer with Swahili and Swedish, that could >>> result in confusion at best. >>> >>>> On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 5:20 PM, Gunnar Hellström >>>> <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> wrote: >>>> I agree with Randall. No more normative or descriptive language is >>>> needed. There is already a warning against providing language >>>> indications that will be hard to match. That will happen if you >>>> decide to answer with a language that was not in the offer. But it >>>> is better than answering with no language indication and it >>>> indicates how you might answer the call. >>>> >>>> There is however one small adjustment to do. The sentence about >>>> having the languages in preference order in the lists should be >>>> included also in the paragraph about the answer in 5.2. Or it >>>> could be pulled out from the paragraph about the offer and put in a >>>> common paragraph below both paragraphs about the offer and the >>>> answer. And the lists should be in plural in the sentence. >>>> Here the sentence is attached last in the paragraph about the >>>> answer: >>>> -----------------------------5.2 paragraph about the answer, with >>>> new sentence attached >>>> last------------------------------------------ >>>> In an answer, 'hlang-send' is a list of one or more languages the >>>> answerer might send if >>>> using the media for language (which in most cases contains one >>>> or more of the >>>> languages in the offer's 'hlang-recv'), and 'hlang-recv' is a >>>> list of one or more of the >>>> languages the answerer is prepared to receive if using the media >>>> for >>>> language (which in most cases contains one or more of the >>>> languages in the offer's >>>> 'hlang-send'). The lists of languages are in preference order >>>> (first is most >>>> preferred). >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> /Gunnar >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Den 2018-02-17 kl. 10:52, skrev Randall Gellens: >>>>> Hi Bernard, >>>>> >>>>> Putting a language in an answer that was not in the offer is an >>>>> unusual case (as the text says). I don’t think we need to add >>>>> more text (normative or descriptive) about it. >>>>> >>>>> —Randall >>>>> >>>>> On 16 Feb 2018, at 19:36, Bernard Aboba wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Yes, the proposed changes seem good. One question: is there enough >>>>> normative language about adding languages to an Answer that were >>>>> not in the Offer? For example, can this only occur if the Answerer >>>>> has no languages in common with the Offerer? Or can an Answerer >>>>> add any languages(s) they would put into an Offer if roles were >>>>> reversed? >>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 02:39 Gunnar Hellström >>>>>> <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> wrote: >>>>>> I find that the changes to version -23 prepared by Randall and >>>>>> provided in this archive mail are good: >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/slim/current/msg01289.html >>>>>> >>>>>> That version allows answers to contain languages not contained in >>>>>> the offer (that was already allowed and well specified in version >>>>>> -23), >>>>>> and allows multiple languages per media and direction in the >>>>>> answer. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think both of these conditions are good and >>>>>> important for successful use of the draft. >>>>>> We need to imagine all kinds of feasible applications, e.g. the >>>>>> decision on including interpreting resources taken by the offeror >>>>>> after receiving the answer. That calls for providing the full and >>>>>> true picture about the supported languages in the answer. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, I repeat my comment from >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/slim/current/msg01297.html >>>>>> "I find the diff you sent to be good, and also version -23 >>>>>> solving all other issues in a good way. So, >>>>>> I vote for applying your proposed changes on -23 and hope that >>>>>> that can be the final version." >>>>>> >>>>>> Gunnar >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Randall >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> SLIM mailing list >>>>>>> SLIM@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> ----------------------------------------- >>>>>> Gunnar Hellström >>>>>> Omnitor >>>>>> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se >>>>>> +46 708 204 288 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --Randall >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> SLIM mailing list >>>>> SLIM@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ----------------------------------------- >>>> Gunnar Hellström >>>> Omnitor >>>> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se >>>> +46 708 204 288 >>> --Randall
- [Slim] Negotiation issue in draft-ietf-slim-negot… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Slim] Negotiation issue in draft-ietf-slim-n… Randall Gellens
- Re: [Slim] Negotiation issue in draft-ietf-slim-n… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [Slim] Negotiation issue in draft-ietf-slim-n… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Slim] Negotiation issue in draft-ietf-slim-n… Randall Gellens
- Re: [Slim] Negotiation issue in draft-ietf-slim-n… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [Slim] Negotiation issue in draft-ietf-slim-n… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Slim] Negotiation issue in draft-ietf-slim-n… Randall Gellens
- Re: [Slim] Negotiation issue in draft-ietf-slim-n… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [Slim] Negotiation issue in draft-ietf-slim-n… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Slim] Negotiation issue in draft-ietf-slim-n… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [Slim] Negotiation issue in draft-ietf-slim-n… Randall Gellens
- Re: [Slim] Negotiation issue in draft-ietf-slim-n… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [Slim] Negotiation issue in draft-ietf-slim-n… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Slim] Negotiation issue in draft-ietf-slim-n… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [Slim] Negotiation issue in draft-ietf-slim-n… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Slim] Negotiation issue in draft-ietf-slim-n… Randall Gellens