Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-19: (with COMMENT)
Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> Mon, 08 January 2018 17:41 UTC
Return-Path: <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
X-Original-To: slim@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: slim@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FF96129C59 for <slim@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 09:41:24 -0800 (PST)
X-Quarantine-ID: <ZHEknhwMvE8b>
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "MIME-Version"
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.91
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZHEknhwMvE8b for <slim@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 09:41:22 -0800 (PST)
Received: from turing.pensive.org (turing.pensive.org [99.111.97.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ACB1127275 for <slim@ietf.org>; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 09:41:22 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [99.111.97.136] (99.111.97.161) by turing.pensive.org with ESMTP (EIMS X 3.3.9); Mon, 8 Jan 2018 09:41:52 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <p06240603d6795cbba847@[99.111.97.136]>
In-Reply-To: <CABcZeBNX4iTuvuqvvqjAQEgnhkV4f5Z1e8Ac2ebWOf=prAcPKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <151528917109.10947.12045320996364596931.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <CABcZeBNQLuaMLa3=gWqaYHL_ynQ1t+HRtsgEebCRORm+OUA0iw@mail.gmail.com> <ECD0168D-9C53-4ACA-BF28-C631DAE38A4D@gmail.com> <CABcZeBPwb5LzCEpaOMbR9CeETHSZiigovkTMhKm_3K=hsWZckA@mail.gmail.com> <p06240601d6785f2e3ad4@99.111.97.136> <CABcZeBNX4iTuvuqvvqjAQEgnhkV4f5Z1e8Ac2ebWOf=prAcPKg@mail.gmail.com>
X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 09:41:16 -0800
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
From: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
Cc: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>, "slim@ietf.org" <slim@ietf.org>, Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/slim/mpdQoAd7XO8OsQ7Js9AKNnxsqdU>
Subject: Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-19: (with COMMENT)
X-BeenThere: slim@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: Selection of Language for Internet Media <slim.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/slim>, <mailto:slim-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/slim/>
List-Post: <mailto:slim@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:slim-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>, <mailto:slim-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 17:41:24 -0000
At 5:56 PM -0800 1/7/18, Eric Rescorla wrote: > On Sun, Jan 7, 2018 at 5:22 PM, Randall Gellens > <<mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote: > > At 6:36 AM -0800 1/7/18, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 7:31 PM, Bernard Aboba > <<mailto:<mailto:bernard.aboba@gmail.com>bernard.aboba@gmail.com><mailto:bernard.aboba@gmail.com>bernard.aboba@gmail.com> > wrote: > > On Jan 6, 2018, at 6:55 PM, Eric Rescorla > <<mailto:<mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>ekr@rtfm.com><mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>ekr@rtfm.com> > wrote: > > For disabled users, the capabilities may not be symmetric. > > > But this is true for ordinary SDP as well. I might be able to > receive H.264 but not send it. > > > [BA] Thanks. The draft should explain the reasoning. IMHO the > argument goes sonething like this: > > A pure recv/recv negotiation will not necessarily disclose > beforehand what special services are needed for the call - services > (e.g. ASL interpretation or RTT handling) that could take time to > acquire. > > Since the actual video media sent is not labelled as ASL even if > the answerer has ASL interpreters it can pull in and therefore > advertises in SDP ASL reception capability in video, a recv/recv > negotiation doesn't tell the Answerer that the Offerer will need > them, so the Answerer may need to (frantically) arrange for ASL > interpretation after initial receipt of media. In an emergency, > that can chew up valuable time. > > > Thanks. I think it would be helpful to put this logic in the draft. > > > I am not clear on what logic we want to add to the draft, or what > about the draft this logic is explaining. > > > It would be helpful to explain in the draft why you have deviated > from the otherwise near-universal SDP negotiation pattern of each > side advertising what it accepts. I'm not clear on what you're referring to. Are you talking about early offer versus late offer? To my understanding, the draft follows a typical offer/answer model: the caller lists the media and languages it supports, and the callee answers with the media and languages it supports. > > That said, as I noted in my review, it is still possible to get > some media (early media) prior to receiving the answer, so this > isn't a complete solution. > > > The draft provides a useful mechanism that will be helpful. As an > example of the fact that others find it useful, NENA has included > it in it's next-generation emergency call architecture standards. > The draft does not try to solve all problems related to human > language in real-time calling. > > > I don't think I claimed it wasn't useful. > > The rationale provided for this design is that you wish to have the > answerer notify the offerer of which language it would be > providing. The point I am making is that there is at least one > important case where this design does not provide that, which seems > like it's relevant to the design question. I think I'm still not understanding your concern. Even without providing a mechanism for the caller to know the languages used with any early media, the draft is still meeting a need. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- Imagination is more important than facts. --Albert Einstein
- [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Randall Gellens
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Randall Gellens (IETF)
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Randall Gellens
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Randall Gellens
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Randall Gellens
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Randall Gellens
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Randall Gellens
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Randall Gellens
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Randall Gellens
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Randall Gellens
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Randall Gellens
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Randall Gellens
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Gunnar Hellström
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Randall Gellens
- Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-… Gunnar Hellström
- [Slim] Updated version addresses comments receive… Randall Gellens
- Re: [Slim] Updated version addresses comments rec… Randall Gellens
- Re: [Slim] Updated version addresses comments rec… Randall Gellens