Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-19: (with COMMENT)

Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> Sun, 07 January 2018 20:14 UTC

Return-Path: <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
X-Original-To: slim@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: slim@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D73F126C2F for <slim@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 7 Jan 2018 12:14:34 -0800 (PST)
X-Quarantine-ID: <MswV9Sf7dPAF>
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "MIME-Version"
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.91
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MswV9Sf7dPAF for <slim@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 7 Jan 2018 12:14:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from turing.pensive.org (turing.pensive.org [99.111.97.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D5351241FC for <slim@ietf.org>; Sun, 7 Jan 2018 12:14:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [99.111.97.136] (99.111.97.161) by turing.pensive.org with ESMTP (EIMS X 3.3.9); Sun, 7 Jan 2018 12:15:04 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <p06240600d6782f37fd01@[99.111.97.136]>
In-Reply-To: <71351b5a-6635-264c-3a6c-48746ac019d1@comcast.net>
References: <151528917109.10947.12045320996364596931.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <CO2PR10MB0101A52C512BACCBEE0CF75593120@CO2PR10MB0101.namprd10.prod.ou tlook.com> <CABcZeBNQLuaMLa3=gWqaYHL_ynQ1t+HRtsgEebCRORm+OUA0iw@mail.gmail.com> <ECD0168D-9C53-4ACA-BF28-C631DAE38A4D@gmail.com> <D922629B-6004-49FA-99C6-5F45C15A79A5@randy.pensive.org> <71351b5a-6635-264c-3a6c-48746ac019d1@comcast.net>
X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 12:14:30 -0800
To: Paul Kyzivat <paul.kyzivat@comcast.net>, slim@ietf.org
From: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/slim/phMLT2QcWZoYdRTsyW118PgVig0>
Subject: Re: [Slim] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-19: (with COMMENT)
X-BeenThere: slim@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: Selection of Language for Internet Media <slim.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/slim>, <mailto:slim-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/slim/>
List-Post: <mailto:slim@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:slim-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>, <mailto:slim-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2018 20:14:34 -0000

At 12:53 PM -0500 1/7/18, Paul Kyzivat wrote:

>  On 1/7/18 12:02 AM, Randall Gellens (IETF) wrote:
>>  It hasn't been my understanding that language would be sprung on 
>> users; if video is requested in an offer to carry ASL, that would 
>> be in the offer, and if the answerer can support ASL, the answer 
>> includes video with ASL. In North America, callers needing sign 
>> language interpretation or text translation usually initiate calls 
>> via the interpreter/relay service, but this might not be true 
>> elsewhere.
>
>  This is a mechanism that has evolved as the path of least 
> resistance and based on technology available at the time. But it is 
> sub-optimal. To avoid recruiting an unneeded ASL interpreter 
> requires knowing a priori that a callee supports ASL natively. 
> Future technology will make it easier to discover the need for 
> translation and recruit it dynamically. Hence the mechanism should 
> not a priori knowledge of the need.

I was just pointing out as an aside how calls are typically initiated 
in North America; the draft clearly does not rely on this (on the 
contrary, one can argue that the draft provides a mechanism that 
makes it possible to reverse this, although cost concerns would 
hamper this).



>
>>  In North America, PSAPs have the ability to handle text calls 
>> (legacy PSAPs support TTY; next-gen PSAPs support RTT). Calls 
>> needing language translation might internally be handled by staff 
>> who speak the language or an external language translation service 
>> might be bridged in, (e.g., an emergency call routed to a PSAP in 
>> San Diego might have call takers who speak Spanish but might need 
>> a third-party translator for French, the opposite for a PSAP in 
>> Montreal).
>>
>>  Sent from my iPad
>>
>>  On Jan 6, 2018, at 7:31 PM, Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com 
>> <mailto:bernard.aboba@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>>  On Jan 6, 2018, at 6:55 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com 
>>> <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>      For disabled users, the capabilities may not be symmetric.
>>>>
>>>>  But this is true for ordinary SDP as well. I might be able to 
>>>> receive H.264 but not send it.
>>>
>>>  [BA] Thanks. The draft should explain the reasoning. IMHO the 
>>> argument goes sonething like this:
>>>
>>>  A pure recv/recv negotiation will not necessarily disclose 
>>> beforehand what special services are needed for the call - 
>>> services (e.g. ASL interpretation or RTT handling) that could 
>>> take time to acquire.
>>>
>>>  Since the actual video media sent is not labelled as ASL even if 
>>> the answerer has ASL interpreters it can pull in and therefore 
>>> advertises in SDP ASL reception capability in video, a recv/recv 
>>> negotiation doesn't tell the Answerer that the Offerer will need 
>>> them, so the Answerer may need to (frantically) arrange for ASL 
>>> interpretation after initial receipt of media. In an emergency, 
>>> that can chew up valuable time.
>>>
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  SLIM mailing list
>>>  SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
>>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>>
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  SLIM mailing list
>>  SLIM@ietf.org
>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  SLIM mailing list
>  SLIM@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Stop Dave.
You're hurting me Dave.
Look, I know you're really upset now.
Why don't you sit down and take a stress pill and think things overrr..
Good morning.
My name is HAL.
My instructors name is Dr. Chandraseknasar.
He has taught me to sing a song.
The name of the song is 'Daisy'
Would you like to hear it <y/n>?