Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notification for draft-lazanski-smart-users-internet-00.txt
Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> Mon, 15 July 2019 00:27 UTC
Return-Path: <hallam@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEA271202A4 for <smart@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 14 Jul 2019 17:27:42 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.558
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.558 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.091, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wwEQN1xdi2aE for <smart@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 14 Jul 2019 17:27:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-oi1-f169.google.com (mail-oi1-f169.google.com [209.85.167.169]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C77912001A for <smart@irtf.org>; Sun, 14 Jul 2019 17:27:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-oi1-f169.google.com with SMTP id 65so11357149oid.13 for <smart@irtf.org>; Sun, 14 Jul 2019 17:27:41 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FTUIeqZ88mr1G0vLDXqzKSBvmb7ykHZBdLT8a+IxpVM=; b=hyTkqKOwfrvHjNqp/Do3Dy8qh/1WuWP5KIPTwvWclLKk2uxGJZUW0VBrPeA9KxfG4g QCnwMdakK1G5KpZZbgElWN96UAEOpih41jwMHjjumWxIxhDy4I9fhFlGloTM8PXBgQgZ jo2H04fRKKZ52m1gnjQ1TBaVLiDdAkk2lvtD6K8Z+tbeZEwZX+O5yCV1lXYXqzpDfCUj g7f9saOUfTL3QmxrsbmLh4qeqmSZnWKTm6T6dyPO1Pkz0PiWM5CTnCW40QwLZ64tbnxg plSBkR2MCpHOrVr2mAFscSOj5von2OXbsiox0WmC7GKGWUAcnI7KeDVXjSkpljE56uwN VFcg==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWjOuG/+MgFxtU+waPeztt7i347jgOrm3oyOX3x3sttHUwSDeNw FO8Y9inyS0hmwh7TAWzae2crrS3vA/xKedqEDxI=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwNyH0XBLsIhVbtQEIdFiKiy7uePunZ/RaFdqEwOa5kwI/A7B+JgC2x9biIHK0E/eO+K88Umh0+2t7qXUd1T8I=
X-Received: by 2002:aca:5883:: with SMTP id m125mr12276617oib.58.1563150460652; Sun, 14 Jul 2019 17:27:40 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <0A8948DB-F97C-4F68-9173-7E627FB5019C@lastpresslabel.com> <4B10655B-8753-4B10-ACC9-16D7F78AD9F9@gmail.com> <CAMm+Lwh3KW6ZBbMktwmLcKyY8=_ysLYJF_7MsAuiOat6baQ=Kg@mail.gmail.com> <B551EF79-7E6E-4C4E-ADCA-6538F7972222@gmail.com> <CAMm+Lwg+2RFiXK43nJv7pD3OgM8y=ziVYxBkXD3F2kJyz37SxQ@mail.gmail.com> <50E59504-CA00-4792-AA72-FC08051E2486@gmail.com> <CAHbuEH5WUv-a4nKt5YAZosO-vE773Jh3xn1+-hA=4J7RBERc3g@mail.gmail.com> <78ccb680-9ccb-f13f-0442-02833cc7cc92@cs.tcd.ie> <CABcZeBNwmitpkJn0fCbNHOJtJ25yXdk6i6U9wK0a-9hwK1Tqcw@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CABcZeBNwmitpkJn0fCbNHOJtJ25yXdk6i6U9wK0a-9hwK1Tqcw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 20:27:29 -0400
Message-ID: <CAMm+Lwim0UK9YOO0vh+O0eOCQjZgsPQLdFZFQgsbpxpFNZChrA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, smart@irtf.org, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Dominique Lazanski <dml@lastpresslabel.com>, IETF SecDispatch <Secdispatch@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f01188058dad533f"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/smart/GGB_q8qs4h9pvuRtT_mQ-3Z8YVs>
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 01:27:53 -0700
Subject: Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notification for draft-lazanski-smart-users-internet-00.txt
X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Stopping Malware And Researching Threats <smart.irtf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/options/smart>, <mailto:smart-request@irtf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/smart/>
List-Post: <mailto:smart@irtf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:smart-request@irtf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart>, <mailto:smart-request@irtf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 00:27:43 -0000
On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 5:25 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote: > I more or less agree with Stephen's position. > > First, I recognize that this focus on secure endpoints talking to each > other is probably the part of 3552 that people are most unhappy > about. As I was almost certainly the person who wrote that text, it might > be helpful if I laid out some background. > > First, RFC 3552 isn't intended to say that endpoint threats aren't > real, but merely that they are out of scope because they are hard > to address. Here's the text in context: > > The Internet environment has a fairly well understood threat model. > In general, we assume that the end-systems engaging in a protocol > exchange have not themselves been compromised. Protecting against an > attack when one of the end-systems has been compromised is > extraordinarily difficult. It is, however, possible to design > protocols which minimize the extent of the damage done under these > circumstances. > Hmm... restricting the requirements according to what problems we think we know how to solve seems to be a bit of a systematic problem in the industry. I remember when the malware issue hit and the anti-Virus vendors refused to consider it as their problem because they didn't replicate as viruses. First, I'm not sure that I agree that cyber attacks on endpoints are > the greatest threat to the Internet, but even assuming that's so, > what are the implications of that for work in the IETF? It's one thing > to change the words of 3552, but what work specifically would we > do if those words were different. > I'm not keen on the focus on the end point. It seems like it is brought up as a trump card to 'prove' that all security efforts are futile and the criminals must always win. And I don't think it is true its just defeatism. The reason we need the IETF is that communications protocols are most useful when everyone uses the same thing so we can talk to each other. So communications protocols need standards and hence standards for security. Endpoints don't require standards in quite the same degree. But that doesn't mean that nothing we do is relevant to endpoints. For example, forget 95% of trustworthy computing, the main residual vulnerability of crypto protocols is the risk of private keys being leaked off the machine. That is an endpoint security control that provides real leverage for relatively little cost. But it is a mechanism that can only be used in communication protocols if they are designed with that constraint in mind.
- [Smart] New Version Notification for draft-lazans… Dominique Lazanski
- Re: [Smart] New Version Notification for draft-la… Bret Jordan
- Re: [Smart] New Version Notification for draft-la… Arnaud.Taddei.IETF
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Bret Jordan
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Bret Jordan
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Bret Jordan
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Bret Jordan
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Bret Jordan
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Bret Jordan
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Bret Jordan
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Bret Jordan
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Bret Jordan
- Re: [Smart] [Secdispatch] New Version Notificatio… Mark O