Re: [smartpower-interest] [smartpowerdir] FYI OSTP requests input on SmartGrid

[Paul Kyzivat <[e-mail]>]

ISTM that a tricky problem will be deciding "should I take my power now, 
at this price, or wait in hope of a lower price later?"

When I get home in my electric car at 6pm (ha!) and plug it in, I know I 
want it recharged before I leave tomorrow morning at 8am. And maybe, at 
maximum charging rate it will take 2 hrs to do that.

Now power is peak priced at 6pm, so that is a bad time to start. Worst 
case the charging needs to start at 6am. If there is a known minimum 
price, then of course it should charge whenever that rate is in effect 
until it is topped off. And it should start charging at whatever rate is 
in effect when it must to top off by 8am. But if there is an 
intermediate rate between max and min, then it has to bet whether to 
take power at that rate, or hold out for a lower rate and risk a higher 
rate.

It will get even more complex if you factor in the possibility of the 
car selling back part of its power at peak rate times. E.g. when I get 
home at 6pm with a half charge still in my battery and its peak rate 
time, maybe I should sell that back, and replace it at 6am. But odds are 
that the the inefficiencies, plus the middleman's cut of each 
transaction will make that an ineffective strategy.

	Thanks,
	Paul

Wilhelm Wimmreuter wrote:
>  I see it as a natural evolution of these ancient guard tone systems in use for high power consumers like heating systems and that like to overcome peak load hours. With a decent introduction of two way communication we can get the network ready to balance upcoming challenges of wind- and solar power distribution.
> 
>  Sure, Richard's thoughts on cloth dryers and smart power sockets are right. However, we shall consider such smart sockets as well for further evolution. 
> 
>  I Agree with Andy and the number of dish washers compared to electric cars. It shall be mentioned, that todays networks can handle all dishwashers over the day. However, the same networks might get problems if future electric cars will rattle the grid at 6 PM in a much stronger way than all dish washers together. Therefore smart chargers can spread out this consumption all over the night.
> 
>  Across the pond you might currently not feel the price of oil as much as an average European. Nevertheless, we shall care to enable our grids early enough to avoid painting ourselves in to a corner with electricity and alternative energy as it nowadays happens with oil in some areas.
> 
>  As for timing, agree that one can use a timer as well. However we can hardly predict when we have strong wind or sun or rain and thus it would be great to start these devices without a fixed time to advantage of better tariffs or overwrite such negotiations for a higher price if one needs the machinery now.
>  
>  So I really look for some brokerage standards and protocols providing an evolutionary path out of the current guard tone systems that control a considerable part of power consumption in Europe today.
> 
>  XML and Web services combined with some settlement protocols might be the tools of the trade to facilitate the needs of consumers as well as some load balancing between power companies across borders in future.
> 
> Willi
> 
> On 15.02.2010, at 21:22, Andy Bierman wrote:
> 
>> Richard Shockey wrote:
>>> I find the discussions of the SmartGrid and my clothes dryer somewhat
>>> boring, but the SmartGrid requirement to manage plug in electric vehicles is
>>> totally compelling.
>> I was interested in how consumers would utilize
>> and manage their smart appliances.  There are a lot
>> more dishwashers and clothes dryers out there than electric cars.
>> If I doubled my home usage because of an electric car,
>> my bill would go up 5 fold, using the current monthly
>> tiered rates.  That's not a compelling use case.
>> Even at the lowest tier, it is still 5 or 10 times
>> more expensive than gasoline where I live.
>>
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [e-mail]
>>> [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
>>> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 1:09 PM
>>> To: hector
>>> Cc: [e-mail]; Wilhelm Wimmreuter
>>> Subject: Re: [smartpower-interest] [smartpowerdir] FYI OSTP requests input
>>> on SmartGrid
>>>
>>> hector wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wilhelm Wimmreuter wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> Let the game begins after the price of energy is increased first -
>>>> cost of building this.   Maybe I am a skeptic, but I find it a little
>>>> hard to shallow that consumers will be paying any less than are are
>>>> today, and that there would be a rates menu ala cart.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> The rates that residential customers pay for electricity
>>> seems very different all over the world.  I don't see how
>>> appliance manufacturers could deal with this problem
>>> on their own.
>>>
>>> If my utility offered significant savings to use power
>>> between midnight and 6 am, then I would be able to
>>> select which appliances I want to use during that
>>> predictable time period.   Appliances already have
>>> buttons to delay-start.  I don't need a SmartGrid for that.
>>>
>>> I don't think I want a complex electric bill, and
>>> automated appliances bidding for kilo-watt-minutes,
>>> and running whenever the 'price is right'.
>>> I prefer the simple midnight - 6am solution for homes.
>>>
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
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