Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start a Conversation proposal
Alan Johnston <alan.b.johnston@gmail.com> Mon, 06 June 2011 20:34 UTC
Return-Path: <alan.b.johnston@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: splices@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: splices@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03B5711E81CA for <splices@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 6 Jun 2011 13:34:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -103.599
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BsGQBVeKf10c for <splices@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 6 Jun 2011 13:34:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-gx0-f172.google.com (mail-gx0-f172.google.com [209.85.161.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2683411E81C8 for <splices@ietf.org>; Mon, 6 Jun 2011 13:34:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19so2192736gxk.31 for <splices@ietf.org>; Mon, 06 Jun 2011 13:34:29 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=V2N1dxsOvpZ8mKLVLStICSJ7uiPYQs+wnXuyQdp4DGo=; b=TN0Yb0HNXArAuizUbx4afqqQ5j5A40D3a+jYXhEDTsCqSMV5md88MkSNmqcRLxtyaW a17LCu6aqo8eF3hLXBGc6jMK4ijvBkSYxbsRcrLZ2gtsScmdo+xUDdyohkUowatEFiCW V4R06IyqsPUxowFxD0iAMOz8Y6+OMDchOX2Pk=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=WRZglcKny9/zT9Y0lpE0JUhpr7FrpPjkzR11Z+Hr2Jkqqa1BoP3OfZfjlRkiqrmjTm nQjZKILm/5VA5kwXhr6b31Ni0qD6B3L87qFpeDSUy11X+CZAApW1gfJfMK0zkU6Vzy6r g160K1f7jDv33a+W9ctYEx9VYfI4jjZkSB84M=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.151.116.9 with SMTP id t9mr4664810ybm.32.1307392469472; Mon, 06 Jun 2011 13:34:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.150.138.8 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Jun 2011 13:34:29 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <4DED2EFA.20004@cisco.com>
References: <6369CB70BFD88942B9705AC1E639A33822CCE270F5@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com> <BANLkTin+7fnDjmsfZVWKsmt631B7toRYVw@mail.gmail.com> <CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B222907E9A1@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com> <1C6C5AB3-6085-4CCA-9F1D-8BA5D98ED651@gmail.com> <4DED2EFA.20004@cisco.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 15:34:29 -0500
Message-ID: <BANLkTimfP2EaJZtPcjOp6s4v+Gk87vetGw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Alan Johnston <alan.b.johnston@gmail.com>
To: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@cisco.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Cc: splices@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start a Conversation proposal
X-BeenThere: splices@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Loosely-coupled SIP Devices \(splices\) working group discussion list" <splices.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/splices>, <mailto:splices-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/splices>
List-Post: <mailto:splices@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:splices-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/splices>, <mailto:splices-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 20:34:31 -0000
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 2:48 PM, Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@cisco.com> wrote: > > > On 6/6/2011 3:35 PM, Alan Johnston wrote: >> >> If I understand correctly, there will be two separate RTP streams, two m= >> lines? >> >> If this is the case, then two separate NAT traversal mechanisms will be >> used (i.e. ICE rubs twice or two relays used). As far as ZRTP or other media >> path keying protocols, each session will be keyed separately. With ZRTP the >> endpoint will see two different ZIDs. This does unfortunately mean two >> Diffie Hellman calculations. >> >> Since these are separate sessions, each will have an RTCP session as well, >> and these may need NAT traversal as well. >> >> So this will work, but things like logging and quality reporting will be >> quite complicated. > > As Dale mentioned, this also depends on the other end doing the "right > thing" with this case. It is a leap of faith to assume it will realize it > should accept both streams and use one for input and the other for output. > > ISTM its at least as likely that it would accept the first stream, reject > the second, and then have only a one-way "conversation". OK, I understand the problem right now. The problem is that this is a special kind of "Join" operation. It is kind of a join, but not quite. The operation we are after is perhaps similar to 3.3.8 Far-Fork in RFC 5850: I suspect instead of Join, we need a new primitive, lets call it Splice or Merge which requests the UAS to add the media in the INVITE into the dialog that is referenced. - Alan - > > Thanks, > Paul > >> - Alan - >> >> >> >> On Jun 6, 2011, at 2:07 PM, "Worley, Dale R (Dale)"<dworley@avaya.com> >> wrote: >> >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: splices-bounces@ietf.org [splices-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >>> Peter Musgrave [musgravepj@gmail.com] >>> >>> I have concerns about this approach. Fundamentally the RTP stream is not >>> symmetric (in the sense of RFC4961). This has consequences for NAT >>> traversal, general interoperability and media path security schemes like >>> ZRTP. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> I have to agree and disagree... As Rifaat diagrammed it, the call should >>> work, as it uses already-defined SIP facilities. Indeed, it's rather >>> clever, I'd never thought of joining a sendonly dialog with a recvonly >>> dialog. There are some limitations, in that we depend on the far-end UA to >>> execute the join in the way we want. >>> >>> The problems you raise, those of asymmetric RTP, already exist -- One can >>> make a sendonly audio call, or a recvonly audio call. We need to ensure >>> that NAT traversal and ZRTP work correctly when media stream is set up to >>> be one-way. >>> >>> Dale >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> splices mailing list >>> splices@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/splices >> >> _______________________________________________ >> splices mailing list >> splices@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/splices >> > _______________________________________________ > splices mailing list > splices@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/splices >
- [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start a C… Shekh-Yusef, Rifaat (Rifaat)
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Peter Musgrave
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Worley, Dale R (Dale)
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Worley, Dale R (Dale)
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Alan Johnston
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Worley, Dale R (Dale)
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Worley, Dale R (Dale)
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Alan Johnston
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Worley, Dale R (Dale)
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Alan Johnston
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Peter Musgrave
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Shekh-Yusef, Rifaat (Rifaat)
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Peter Musgrave
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Gonzalo Camarillo
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Worley, Dale R (Dale)
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [splices] Using Two Separate Devices to Start… Worley, Dale R (Dale)