Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
"Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com> Thu, 27 February 2020 19:28 UTC
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To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
References: <F88E3F76-DD4B-4807-A458-85FABFF20D96@gmail.com> <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <CAHw9_iJ_ipEvU0NUx44XbK0_DrLe_GRw6G=m+chK4wZcRP8BMg@mail.gmail.com> <ACA082A4-BC78-4C63-9F91-5C9A44F47642@cisco.com> <b693c244-95f9-473e-de21-166393280d18@gmail.com> <CAHw9_iL6oM73JnSU1QL0+PRohSH6sEskD=enH7QsPrWiUfStDg@mail.gmail.com> <CAOj+MMGQqoMXnU-VAjx_PTL-ObbsXTYqhjwuQG6eDxfCwmyJ9g@mail.gmail.com> <30908949-9150-4784-A0FD-69F92889FB3D@fugue.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:27:54 -0500
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/AdI-bxiG-wfVLpoca5r6TNltJes>
Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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THere is one nuance that is worth noting. It is not for the case of a controversial document. Rather, the case where +1 can be useful is when the question is whether the working group even cares about the document. I have had several cases of calls for adoption or WG last call where there was almost no response on the mailing list. In the absence of decent indication, I as chair feel compleed to say "no, I do not see enough support to adopt / advance / ... this document". In that situation, even +1s can help. (And yes, I do watch for the case of all the +1s coming from the same company as the author, and then start judging whether they are folks who participate, along the lines Warren outlined.) Yours, Joel On 2/27/2020 2:07 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Feb 27, 2020, at 1:59 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net > <mailto:robert@raszuk.net>> wrote: >> It is very unfortunate that IETF does not have a good way of >> retrieving judgement from real group of folks who understand given >> proposal. > > We do. It’s called “substantive comments.” > >> "+1" is just only one demonstration of it. Humming is another. Raising >> hands one more. We say there is no voting but while there is no formal >> ballot box nor even e-ballot version of it all of the above ways to >> gather "consensus" are examples of voting. > > Actually, the purpose of humming is not to make a decision, but to > figure out whether there is general consensus. If you ask for a hum > and you get a 50-50 response, there probably isn’t consensus, and you > might just say “we don’t have consensus” and go on to figuring out how. > If the “no” hum has no loud participants, you might say “looks like > we’re good to go, we’ll confirm on the list.” If there’s someone > humming loudly no when everybody else is in favor, and you don’t know > why they’re humming that way, that’s a good time to ask them if they are > willing to explain. > > But bear in mind that humming does not take place on the mailing list, > and that consensus is called on the mailing list, not in the room. > > On the mailing list, people pretty much have to raise objections > verbally. No amount of +1s should be considered meaningful at all. > The work is chartered; the wg is supposed to do it. If there are no > objections, and people feel the document is ready, then it should move > forward, whether there are +1s or not. If objections are raised, and > they are substantive (that is, not opinion or conjecture), then they > have to be addressed. They can be addressed by saying “we considered > that, and the working group as a whole agrees that the problem exists, > but it doesn’t need to be addressed because this document is only > applicable in a situation where the objection raised doesn’t matter.” > Or it can add text to address the objection, as Brian I think has > suggested. Or it can do additional work to address the problem, as > Brian has also suggested. > > But the WG can’t simply ignore the objection. That is not what “rough > consensus” means. > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Dongjie (Jimmy)
- [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward… Lizhenbin
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Huzhibo
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… xiechf@chinatelecom.cn
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Chengli (Cheng Li)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… dzp
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… liupengyjy@outlook.com
- [spring] 答复: Request to close the LC and move for… Chenxia (D)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Zafar Ali (zali)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Dirk Steinberg
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Bob Hinden
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… John Leddy
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Warren Kumari
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Mike Simpson
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… 神明達哉
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… john leddy.net
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Mark Smith
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Voyer, Daniel
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Bob Hinden
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Satoru Matsushima
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Gaurav Dawra
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Stefano Salsano
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Weiqiang Cheng
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… =?utf-8?B?WWlzb25nIExpdQ==?=
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Stefano Salsano
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Bernier, Daniel
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ahmed Bashandy
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Dirk Steinberg
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Mark Smith
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Maojianwei (Mao)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ted Lemon
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Andrew Alston
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Stefano Salsano
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Xiejingrong (Jingrong)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Voyer, Daniel
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Voyer, Daniel
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ted Lemon
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ted Lemon
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Stefano Salsano
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Alexander Vainshtein
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Andrew Alston
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… John Scudder
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Stefano Salsano
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… James Guichard
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Warren Kumari
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ted Lemon
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ted Lemon
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Warren Kumari
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… 神明達哉
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ted Lemon
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Sander Steffann
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… 神明達哉
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Mark Smith
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Keyur Patel
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… 神明達哉
- [spring] "penultimate segment" [Re: Request to cl… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] "penultimate segment" [Re: Request t… Stefano Salsano
- Re: [spring] "penultimate segment" [Re: Request t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] "penultimate segment" [Re: Request t… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… S Moonesamy
- [spring] 答复: Request to close the LC and move for… huruizhao
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Tim Chown
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Chengli (Cheng Li)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… S Moonesamy
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… S Moonesamy
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… S Moonesamy
- [spring] Automated Disclaimers (RE: Request to cl… Alvaro Retana
- Re: [spring] Automated Disclaimers (RE: Request t… S Moonesamy
- Re: [spring] Automated Disclaimers (RE: Request t… Barry Leiba
- Re: [spring] Automated Disclaimers (RE: Request t… S Moonesamy
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Alexander Vainshtein
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Alexander Vainshtein
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Alexander Vainshtein