Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our processes (Re: Network Programming - Penultimate Segment Popping)
Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> Sat, 07 December 2019 01:18 UTC
Return-Path: <fgont@si6networks.com>
X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 585AE120044; Fri, 6 Dec 2019 17:18:40 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.9
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cnRrMEI6_ZTF; Fri, 6 Dec 2019 17:18:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9816912003E; Fri, 6 Dec 2019 17:18:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [192.168.4.77] (unknown [190.179.35.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 63C4A863C5; Sat, 7 Dec 2019 02:18:31 +0100 (CET)
To: otroan@employees.org
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, 6man <6man@ietf.org>, "int-ads@ietf.org" <int-ads@ietf.org>, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, rtg-ads <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
References: <f2a0ad13-0eba-6f5a-1d3c-e45e2780f201@si6networks.com> <D666EA6E-E8E9-439A-9CDE-20857F03CB65@employees.org> <eb101558-5106-c6ef-6007-3fb7673e9611@si6networks.com> <DA77DF83-D8E8-4561-B445-18D072922084@employees.org>
From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
Autocrypt: addr=fgont@si6networks.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBE5so2gBEACzBQBLUy8nzgAzSZn6ViXT6TmZBFNYNqTpPRvTVtUqF6+tkI+IEd9N2E8p pXUXCd0W4dkxz6o7pagnK63m4QSueggvp881RVVHOF8oTSHOdnGxLfLeLNJFKE1FOutU3vod GK/wG/Fwzkv9MebdXpMlLV8nnJuAt66XGl/lU1JrNfrKO4SoYQi4TsB/waUQcygh7OR/PEO0 EttiU8kZUbZNv58WH+PAj/rdZCrgUSiGXiWUQQKShqKnJxLuAcTcg5YRwL8se/V6ciW0QR9i /sr52gSmLLbW5N3hAoO+nv1V/9SjJAUvzXu43k8sua/XlCXkqU7uLj41CRR72JeUZ4DQsYfP LfNPC98ZGTVxbWbFtLXxpzzDDT8i3uo7w1LJ2Ij/d5ezcARqw01HGljWWxnidUrjbTpxkJ9X EllcsH94mer728j/HKzC9OcTuz6WUBP3Crgl6Q47gY5ZIiF0lsmd9/wxbaq5NiJ+lGuBRZrD v0dQx9KmyI0/pH2AF8cW897/6ypvcyD/1/11CJcN+uAGIrklwJlVpRSbKbFtGC6In592lhu7 wnK8cgyP5cTU+vva9+g6P1wehi4bylXdlKc6mMphbtSA+T3WBNP557+mh3L62l4pGaEGidcZ DLYT2Ud18eAJmxU3HnM8P3iZZgeoK7oqgb53/eg96vkONXNIOwARAQABtCVGZXJuYW5kbyBH b250IDxmZ29udEBzaTZuZXR3b3Jrcy5jb20+iQJBBBMBAgArAhsjBQkSzAMABgsJCAcDAgYV CAIJCgsEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCTmylpQIZAQAKCRCuJQ1VHU50kv7wD/9fuNtTfxSLk3B3Hs3p ixTy8YXVjdkVwWlnJjFd7BOWmg7sI+LDhpjGfT6+ddOiwkumnvUZpObodj4ysH0i8c7P4C5t F9yu7WjklSlrB5Rth2CGChg5bKt541z2WHkFFxys9qBLmCSYDeKQkzLqhCjIUJizY2kOJ2GI MnSFDzJjhSFEh//oW830Y8fel1xnf/NVF+lBVtRMtMOfoWUqDjvP3sJ1G4zgkDCnF0CfncLx +hq2Mv26Uq9OTzvLH9aSQQ/f067BOkKAJKsfHdborX4E96ISTz57/4xECRSMr5dVsKVm4Y// uVIsb+L5z+a32FaiBZIAKDgnJO7Z8j6CV5e5yfuBTtX52Yi9HjYYqnYJGSDxYd6igD4bWu+7 xmJPHjkdqZgGV6dQIgiUfqkU+s5Cv350vK48CMaT/ZLo2BdsMhWsmaHmb+waePUMyq6E4E9x 9Js+EJb9ZiCfxS9exgieZQpet1L36IvhiwByvkQM009ywfa30JeMOltUtfLi5V06WQWsTzPL 5C+4cpkguSuAJVDTctjCA0moIeVDOpJ8WH9voQ4IeWapQnX35OIoj1jGJqqYdx65gc1ygbyx b8vw+pJ9E5GLse5TQnYifOWpXzX9053dtbwp/2OVhU4KLlzfCPCEsoTyfu9nIZxdI2PMwiL5 M85BfjX4NmwBLmPGoLkCDQRObKNoARAAqqXCkr250BchRDmi+05F5UQFgylUh10XTAJxBeaQ UNtdxZiZRm6jgomSrqeYtricM9t9K0qb4X2ZXmAMW8o8AYW3RrQHTjcBwMnAKzUIEXXWaLfG cid/ygmvWzIHgMDQKP+MUq1AGQrnvt/MRLvZLyczAV1RTXS58qNaxtaSpc3K/yrDozh/a4pu WcUsVvIkzyx43sqcwamDSBb6U8JFoZizuLXiARLLASgyHrrCedNIZdWSx0z0iHEpZIelA2ih AGLiSMtmtikVEyrJICgO81DkKNCbBbPg+7fi23V6M24+3syHk3IdQibTtBMxinIPyLFF0byJ aGm0fmjefhnmVJyCIl/FDkCHprVhTme57G2/WdoGnUvnT7mcwDRb8XY5nNRkOJsqqLPemKjz kx8mXdQbunXtX9bKyVgd1gIl+LLsxbdzRCch773UBVoortPdK3kMyLtZ4uMeDX3comjx+6VL bztUdJ1Zc9/njwVG8fgmQ+0Kj5+bzQfUY+MmX0HTXIx3B4R1I1a8QoOwi1N+iZNdewV5Zfq+ 29NlQLnVPjCRCKbaz9k6RJ2oIti55YUI6zSsL3lmlOXsRbXN5bRswFczkNSCJxJMlDiyAUIC WOay7ymzvgzPa+BY/mYn94vRaurDQ4/ljOfj6oqgfjts+dJev4Jj89vp8MQI3KJpZPEAEQEA AYkCJQQYAQIADwUCTmyjaAIbDAUJEswDAAAKCRCuJQ1VHU50km4xEACho45PZrUjY4Zl2opR DFNo5a6roTOPpgwO9PcBb3I5F8yX2Dnew+9OhgWXbBhAFq4DCx+9Gjs43Bn60qbZTDbLGJ/m 8N4PwEiq0e5MKceYcbetEdEUWhm5L6psU9ZZ82GR3UGxPXYe+oifEoJjOXQ39avf9S8p3yKP Diil0E79rn7LbJjMcgMLyjFg9SDoJ6pHLtniJoDhEAaSSgeV7Y745+gyMIdtQmrFHfqrFdjq D6G0HE+Z68ywc5KN67YxhvhBmSycs1ZSKAXv1zLDlXdmjHDHkU3xMcB+RkuiTba8yRFYwb/n j62CC4NhFTuIKOc4ta3dJsyXTGh/hO9UjWUnmAGfd0fnzTBZF8Qlnw/8ftx5lt4/O+eqY1EN RITScnPzXE/wMOlTtdkddQ+QN6xt6jyR2XtAIi7aAFHypIqA3lLI9hF9x+lj4UQ2yA9LqpoX 6URpPOd13JhAyDe47cwsP1u9Y+OBvQTVLSvw7Liu2b4KjqL4lx++VdBi7dXsjJ6kjIRjI6Lb WVpxe8LumMCuVDepTafBZ49gr7Fgc4F9ZSCo6ChgQNLn6WDzIkqFX+42KuHz90AHWhuW+KZR 1aJylERWeTcMCGUSBptd48KniWmD6kPKpzwoMkJtEXTuO2lVuborxzwuqOTNuYg9lWDl7zKt wPI9brGzquUHy4qRrA==
Message-ID: <17b63259-2227-3494-4d3e-5411048e2ca2@si6networks.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2019 22:10:30 -0300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <DA77DF83-D8E8-4561-B445-18D072922084@employees.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/GmIYO9dpI1jnOV5EFzqScB13K7w>
Subject: Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our processes (Re: Network Programming - Penultimate Segment Popping)
X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" <spring.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/spring>, <mailto:spring-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/spring/>
List-Post: <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:spring-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring>, <mailto:spring-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2019 01:18:40 -0000
On 6/12/19 20:55, otroan@employees.org wrote: >> * polling the mailing list instead of deciding (on your own) that the >> group wants to work on EH insertion, and, > > Which decision are you referring to? > I have certainly never decided that working group wants to work on header insertion. This is your note: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/j177aiqH6G4XNTWWrRfpsV23IVg Then I re-asked: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/12Qwp_eeQT2EmbUrSxBLL5HTcnM But you didn't respond. Suresh clarified there had not been any sort of adoption call: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/Db6_SGfmeIDzaE56Ps5kUDCYEzY Then again we were debating the topic here: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/56w4LQzYtkut43A46ADhW3dWT-Y The reality is that there has not been a call for adoption for any of these two documents. So.. I'm not sure what a say may the wg have on documents that are individual documents. On that ground, RFC8200 represents IETF consensus. And the spring documents should be complying with it. TO be honest, I have no idea what there is to debate here. > With regards to the documents, I believe I clarified the statement of the working group seeing no reason why both documents couldn't be continue to be worked on. The wg doesn't have a say on individual documents. So, yes, both documents can continue to be worked on as much as I can continue "working" on my BBQ. Whatever the opinion of the wg, authors can work on individual I-Ds as much as they please. For the wg to have a say, I guess there has to be a conversation about adoption. But such conversation hasn't taken place. (Me, myself, I'd find it amusing to see the wg have two documents, one that says "this is evil", and another about "doing evil" :-) But that's of course a personal view). > Those documents are not adopted, nor has any decision about adoption been made, nor is any adoption call of those documents planned. > > I certainly don't want us as a group or myself personally to be working on header insertion. > You might not be alone, but you certainly keep repeatedly forcing the working group to consider the issue. And here we go again, for the Nth time: a big part of this thread came up because folks at the spring are violating our specs. So I have requested folks (including INT and RTG ADs), that the document remove all text that violates RFC8200. But then we see all this body of imagination of how they are not violating RFC8200 (when they are), you talking about the topic being nuanced and about "limited domains", etc. >> * complying with existing specifications unless there's formal consensus >> for them to be formally updated. > > I believe I have responded multiple times to this point. > I do not in principle see a conflict with specifying how header insertion can work in a specific case, > and the text in RFC8200. I would strongly oppose updating RFC8200, since header insertion is clearly > something that can only apply in specific use cases. You have a spec that explicitly forbids it, with as strong of a wording as available (it's not a "MUST NOT", because you and others opposed to having rfc2460bis employ RFC2119 language). EH-insertion goes against an explicitly forbidden behavior. Is not that you are playing in the MAY or SHOULD area. So an update is warranted if this is to happen. So yes, if you want to go against the spec, you have to update it. I don't think we publish specs for folks to then come an note why they have decided to violate them. And to the ocassional RFC reader, it will be a bit of a mess to sail through a bunch of documents where some specify behavior, and others simply do what they please. A formal update is also warranted because, otherwise, if I read RFC8200 (and there's no metadata that points to EH-insertion), I can assume that this packet mangling doesn't occur. But then if the same organization (IETF) publishes another document that says how to mangle with IPv6 packets, without any formal update of RFC8200, I have nothing signaling me to read it. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492
- [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Segmen… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… otroan
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… otroan
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Fernando Gont
- [spring] We don't seem to be following our proces… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… otroan
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… otroan
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Enno Rey
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Enno Rey
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… otroan
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Sander Steffann
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Sander Steffann
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… otroan
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… otroan
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Andrew Alston
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Andrew Alston
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… otroan
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… otroan
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Ole Troan
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Andrew Alston
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Sander Steffann
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… otroan
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- [spring] Separating issues (was Re: We don't seem… Suresh Krishnan
- [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8200 … Suresh Krishnan
- Re: [spring] Separating issues (was Re: We don't … Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Tom Herbert
- Re: [spring] Network Programming - Penultimate Se… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] We don't seem to be following our pr… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Mark Smith
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Penultimate Segment Popping and RFC8… Fernando Gont
- [spring] Non-final destination address (was Re: P… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: [spring] Non-final destination address (was R… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Non-final destination address (was R… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: [spring] Non-final destination address (was R… Fernando Gont