Re: [spring] 6MAN WGLC: draft-ietf-6man-sids

[Robert Raszuk <[e-mail]>]

Joel,

> You can't tell a packet validly from another piece of your domain from a
packet being
> sourced by an attacker and spoofing its source address.

Please rest assured that it is way easier to filter unplanned actions
carried in SRH inserted by an attacker than to protect all end systems from
globally reachable IPv6 destinations.

So the former is a "bad idea" and the latter great one ... very interesting
observation.

Nevertheless it is great that all you can do is to write an operational
recommendation. What will be actually done in the production networks is
beyond your control.

Cheers,
R.

On Sun, Oct 9, 2022 at 5:26 PM Joel Halpern <[e-mail]> wrote:

> It is accurate that transits that do not use SRH do not need to worry
> about SRH.  And arguably, even those that do use SRH do not need to worry
> about SIDs not in their usage ranges.  Getting that right is non-trivial,
> but...
>
> The point in this particular case is that connecting pieces of your domain
> in the clear over the Internet puts you at significant risk.  You can't
> tell a packet validly from another piece of your domain from a packet being
> sourced by an attacker and spoofing its source address.  So if you deploy
> the use case you have described, that causes you to object to other folks
> filtering SRH, you are doing something that the IETF has good reason to say
> is a bad idea.
>
> So folks who filter the SRH, even if you do not like it, are doing what we
> told them to do.  SRv6 was approved only for limited domains.
>
> While you have said you do not like limited domains, and there is a lot of
> ambiguity and bending of rules around such things, it does seem appropraite
> and legitimate for us to write in restrictions based on that property that
> the RFCs require.
>
> Yours,
>
> Joel
> On 10/9/2022 10:49 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote:
>
> Joel,
>
> > it turns SRH into a powerful attack vector
>
> Really ?
>
> How is this possible if IPv6 destination address of the packet does not
> belong to the block of locally allocated range used as ASN's infra subnet ?
> I am talking about a pure IPv6 transit case.
>
> Isn't this the case that SRH should be examined by the node listed in the
> destination address of the packet ?
>
> And of course it is common and very good practice to filter any external
> attempt to reach my own address blocks use for management and node
> configuration. But this is way more granular then to say kill all packets
> entering my network which have SRH.
>
> Thx,
> R.
>
> On Sun, Oct 9, 2022 at 4:37 PM Joel Halpern <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
>> We require, per the RFC, blocking SRH outside of the limited domain for
>> many reasons.
>>
>> One example is that it turns SRH into a powerful attack vector, given
>> that source address spoofing means there is little way to tell whether an
>> unencapsulated packet actually came from another piece of the same domain.
>>
>> So yes, I think making this restriction clear in this RFC is important
>> and useful.
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>> Joel
>> On 10/8/2022 5:07 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote:
>>
>> Hi Brian,
>>
>> Completely agree.
>>
>> One thing is not to guarantee anything in respect to forwarding IPv6
>> packets with SRH (or any other extension header) and the other thing is to
>> on purpose recommending killing it at interdomain boundary as some sort of
>> evil.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> R.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 9:51 PM Brian E Carpenter <
>> [e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>>> Robert,
>>>
>>> > If there is any spec which mandates that someone will drop my IPv6
>>> packets only because they contain SRH in the IPv6 header I consider this an
>>> evil and unjustified action.
>>>
>>> The Internet is more or less opaque to most extension headers,
>>> especially to recently defined ones, so I don't hold out much hope for SRH
>>> outside SR domains.
>>>
>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9098.html
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-elkins-v6ops-eh-deepdive-fw
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>     Brian Carpenter
>>>
>>> On 09-Oct-22 07:52, Robert Raszuk wrote:
>>> > Hi Joel,
>>> >
>>> > I was hoping this is apparent so let me restate that I do not buy into
>>> "limited domain" business for SRv6.
>>> >
>>> > I have N sites connected over v6 Internet. I want to send IPv6 packets
>>> between my "distributed globally limited domain" without yet one more encap.
>>> >
>>> > If there is any spec which mandates that someone will drop my IPv6
>>> packets only because they contain SRH in the IPv6 header I consider this an
>>> evil and unjustified action.
>>> >
>>> > Kind regards,
>>> > Robert
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 7:40 PM Joel Halpern <[e-mail]
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >     Robert, I am having trouble understanding your email.
>>> >
>>> >     1) A Domain would only filter the allocated SIDs plus what it
>>> chooses to use for SRv6.
>>> >
>>> >     2) Whatever it a domain filters should be irrelevant to any other
>>> domain, since by definition SRv6 is for use only within a limited domain.
>>> So as far as I can see there is no way a domain can apply incorrect
>>> filtering.
>>> >
>>> >     Yours,
>>> >
>>> >     Joel
>>> >
>>> >     On 10/8/2022 3:16 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote:
>>> >>     Hi Suresh,
>>> >>
>>> >>         NEW:
>>> >>         In case the deployments do not use this allocated prefix
>>> additional care needs to be exercised at network ingress and egress points
>>> so that SRv6 packets do not leak out of SR domains and they do not
>>> accidentally enter SR unaware domains.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>     IMO this is too broad. I would say that such ingress filtering
>>> could/should happen only if dst or locator is within locally
>>> configured/allocated prefixes. Otherwise it is pure IPv6 transit and I see
>>> no harm not to allow it.
>>> >>
>>> >>         Similarly as stated in Section 5.1 of RFC8754 packets
>>> entering an SR domain from the outside need to be configured to filter out
>>> the selected prefix if it is different from the prefix allocated here.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>     Again the way I read it this kills pure IPv6 transit for SRv6
>>> packets. Why ?
>>> >>
>>> >>     (Well I know the answer to "why" from our endless discussions
>>> about SRv6 itself and network programming however I still see no need to
>>> mandate in any spec to treat SRv6 packets as unwanted/forbidden for pure
>>> IPv6 transit.)
>>> >>
>>> >>     Thx,
>>> >>     R.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> > [e-mail]
>>> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>