From nobody Wed Jul 12 19:18:31 2023 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76DC6C1526ED; Wed, 12 Jul 2023 19:18:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.885 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.885 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j6Hglyyf4Gs4; Wed, 12 Jul 2023 19:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta3.chinamobile.com (cmccmta3.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 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boundary="----=_001_NextPart366066070062_=----" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-mpls-path-segment X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 02:18:30 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart366066070062_=---- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgQnJ1bm8sDQoNClRoYW5rcyBmb3IgeW91ciBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbi4gDQoNClRoZSBhdXRob3Jz IGFsc28gYXBwcmVjaWF0ZSBKaW0ncyBjYXJlZnVsIGd1aWRhbmNlLg0KDQpJIGFtIHRyeWluZyB0 byBhbnN3ZXIgeW91ciB0d28gcXVlc3Rpb25zIGFzIGJlbG93Og0KDQpJcyB0aGVyZSBhbiBleGlz dGluZyBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbiBvZiB0aGUgcHJvdG9jb2w/DQoNCkFzIGZhciBhcyBJIGtub3cs IHRoZXJlIGFyZSBub3cgbXVsdGlwbGUgdmVuZG9ycyB3aG8gaGF2ZSBpbXBsZW1lbnRlZCB0aGUg cHJvdG9jb2wgb24gdGhlaXIgZGlmZmVyZW50IHByb2R1Y3Rpb25zLCBhbmQgc2V2ZXJhbCBvcGVy 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=0A=0A
Hi Bruno,

Thanks for your information.&nb= sp;

The authors also appreciate Jim's careful gui= dance.

I am trying to answer your two questions a= s below:

Is there an existing implementation of t= he protocol?

As far as I know, there are now mult= iple vendors who have implemented the protocol on their different producti= ons, and several operators have deployed it in their field network. Taking= China Mobile as an example, we have deployed more than 300,000 SPN(slicin= g packet network) Nodes for 5G backhaul, which already support this protoc= ol. This protocol plays an important role in the performance monitoring an= d trouble shooting for the large-scale SR network.

Are there a large number of vendors that have indicated that they plan t= o implement the specification?

As our presentatio= ns, more than 10 vendors have implement it, such as ZTE, Fiberhome, Huawei= . And more and more vendors are implementing it in their new productions. = At the same time, based on the protocol, several new drafts have been post= for new application scenarios, such as:
https://www.ietf.org/ar= chive/id/draft-lin-bfd-path-consistency-over-sr-01.txt, in this draft, H3C= proposed a BFD solution based on path segment to keep the forward path an= dreverse path consistent when using S-BFD or U-BFD.

Any comments are welcome.

= =0A
B.R
Weiqiang Cheng

=0A
 
Date: 2023-07-12 22:41
To: draft-ietf-spr= ing-mpls-path-segment@ietf.org; SPRING WG
Subject: draft-ietf-spring-mpls-path-segment=
=0A=0A
=0A

Hi=0Aauthors,

=0A

 

=0A

Since Jim is now the= responsible AD, the shepherd for this document has been changed from Jim = to myself.

=0A

As a result you/this document benefit/suffer from a= nother review.

=0A

 

=0A

Please find below my comme= nts/questions.

=0A

 

=0A

On a side note, I have two= questions for you (for the shepherd writeup):

=0A

=0AAre there exist= ing implementations of the protocol?

=0A

=0AHave a significant number= of vendors indicated their plan to implement the specification?

=0A

 

=0A

 

=0A

---

=0A

 =

=0A

"This document defines a new type of segment that i= s referred to as Path Segment, which is used to identify an SR path in an = SR-MPLS network."

=0A

 

=0A

Given that the path segme= nt may be allocated from a local label of the egress node, (e.g. SRLB, dyn= amic pool), I believe that only the egress=0A node may use that label to i= dentify an SR-path. (not any node on the path/in the network).<= /span>

=0A

If so I believe the following change would be more accurate:

=0A

= OLD; to identify an SR path in an SR-MPLS network.

= =0A

NEW: to i= dentify an SR path on the egress LER

=0A

 <= /p>=0A

&= nbsp;

=0A

Same comment for the =C2=A71 Introduction. ("A Path Segment i= s defined to uniquely identify an SR path in an SR-MPLS network.")

=0A

 

=0A

 

=0A

-------

= =0A

Abstract:=

=0A

"A Segment Routing (SR) path is identified by an SR segment l= ist. Only the complete segment list can identify the end-to-end SR path, a= nd=0A a sub-set of segments from the segment list cannot distinguish one S= R path from another as they may be partially congruent. SR path identifica= tion is a pre-requisite for various use-cases such as Performance Measurem= ent (PM), bidirectional paths correlation,=0A and end-to-end 1+1 path prot= ection."

=0A

 

=0A

This seems to be saying that "Perf= ormance Measurement (PM), bidirectional paths correlation, and end-to-end = 1+1 path protection" is not possible=0A without MPLS Path Segment. I don't= feel that this is correct. Eventually you mean that "a form of path ident= ification/discrimination", which is different as this identification may b= e performed at a different layer than the SR-path. (e.g. different=0Aegresss loopbacl/pr= efix SID, any form of ID below that MPLS stack (e.g. different IP address,= L4 source/destination port, application specific ID (e.g. My=0AMiscriminator?)...

=0A

May be consider rephras= ing.

=0A

 

=0A

 

=0A

Same text/comment i= n the =C2=A71 Introduction.

=0A

 

=0A

-------

=0A

 

=0A

=C2=A71 Introduction

=0A

"or IPv6 data pla= ne using an SRH header via SRv6 [RFC8986]"

=0A

Since this document= is specific to SR-MPLS, I don't think that this text and reference are ne= eded.

=0A

-------

=0A

<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial"= ;,sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">=C2=A71.2

=0A"SRv6: Instant= iation of SR on the IPv6 data plane."

=0A

Since this document is s= pecific to SR-MPLS, I don't think that this text is needed.

=0A

 

=0A

-----

=0A

=C2=A71 Introduction<= /p>=0A

"Thus,= the egress node cannot determine along which SR path the packet came."

=0A

 

=0A

As per a previous comment, may be restricting= this statement to the SR-path.=0A

=0A

e.g. NEW: Thus, the egress = node cannot use the SR label stack to determine along which SR path the pa= cket came.=0A

=0A

 

=0A

------

= =0A

=C2=A72

=0A

 

=0A

"If the Path Segment is used by an inter= mediate node to identify an SR path, the SRGB MUST be used."

=0A

<= o:p> 

=0A

I don't think that the use of a label from the SRGB allo= ws to identify the path on a intermediate node. e.g. this label may have b= een chosen=0A by LDP/BGP LU/BGP VPN by a non SR compliant router. Also the= MPLS WG is discussing MNA which allows inserting any number/thing in the = stack (so including a value which is part of the SRGB).=0A

=0A

I w= ould propose to remove this sentence (alternatively define another technic= al solution for this, but any significant technical change may=0A justify = returning the document to the WG)

=0A

 

= =0A

---------= --

=0A

=C2=A72

=0A

 

=0A

"The term of SR path= used in this document is a general term that can be used to describe an S= R Policy, a Candidate-Path (CP), or a Segment-List=0A (SL) [RFC9256]. Ther= efore, the PSID may be used to identify an SR Policy, its CP, or a SL term= inating on an egress node depending on the use-case."=0A

&nb= sp;

=0A

From a general standpoint, the PSID may probably be used to i= dentify whatever you want _assuming_ a coordination between the ingress an= d=0A the egress to specify the scope of the identification.

=0A

So= IMO,

=0A

- either this document specify the scope of the identifi= cation, in which case no additional coordination is required, but this may= limit=0A the future use cases. I would suggest that a PSID identifies a C= andidate-Path as this seems inline with RFC 9256.

=0A=

- or this do= cument defines how this scope/meaning is coordinated between the ingress a= nd egress. ( section 3 says that this is out of scope).=0A In which case t= his document can't say what this PSID identify. (it could be a SR Policy, = or a Candidate-Path or just anything including application specific (e.g.= =0AAltnernate marking). To some extend the n= ame of the ID (PSID) and even the name of the Segment type (Path Segment) = is debatable as you may not be identifying a path. This looks like a bigge= r change.

=0A

 

=0A

(More generally MPLS is about mak= ing an association between a label value (any number) and a FEC/significat= ion. In this document you propose=0A to use a label value but you declare = that assigning the FEC/signification is out of scope. To me this significa= ntly reduce the interest of this document and the ability to have interope= rability between two nodes implementing this document making it more a=0A = framework and than a STD track document.)

=0A

 

=0A

I= think my suggestion would be to say that a PSID identifies a Candidate Pa= th [RFC9256]. =0AThat way bot= h the ingress and the egress knowns that using a different PSID means usin= g a different candidate path. This still leave out of scope how the ingres= s knows about the PSID to use for each CP (let's say it's part of the SR p= olicy configured/pushed)=0A and what is the behavior on the receiver. And = if one really needs to identify the SR Policy, one could achieve by either= configuring, on the ingress, the same PSID for all the CP of the SR Polic= y.; or by configuring on the egress all the PSID used by the CP=0A of a gi= ven SR Policy.

=0A

 

=0A

-----=0A

=C2=A72<= o:p>

=0A

"The value of the TTL field in the MPLS label stack entry con= taining the PSID MUST be set to the same value as the TTL of the last labe= l=0A stack entry for the last segment in the SR path."=0A

"MUST" = is a pretty strong statement. What is the reason for this? What is the egr= ess supposed to do if this is not the case?

=0A

Interestingly, RFC= 6790 has a oppositive position with regards to the Entropy Label: "The TT= L for the EL MUST be zero to ensure that it is=0A not used inadvertently f= or forwarding." while the case seems similar (addition of a label "not use= d for forwarding")

=0A

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6790#section-4.2

=0A

=0A

 Is there any rule for the TC field? (if not, please say so; if so, please= specify the rule)

=0A

---

=0A

=0A =C2=A72

=0A

"Normally, an interm= ediate node will not process the PSID in the label stack because the PSID = is inserted after the routing segment pointing=0A to the egress node. But = in some use cases, an intermediate node MAY process the PSID in the label = stack by scanning the label stack or other means. In these cases, the PSID= MUST be learned before processing. The detailed use cases and processing = is out of=0A the scope of this document."

=0A

=0A

 I think that this text is about coo= rdinating the semantic of the PSID between the node writing it=0A (ingress= ) and the node(s) reading it (egrees or tran= sit). Hence I think this point should rather be moved to section " 3. PSID= Allocation and Distribution "

=0A

=0A

 ------

=0A

=C2=A72=0A

=0A

 "A PSID can be used in= the case of Penultimate Hop Popping (PHP), where some labels are be poppe= d=0A off at the penultimate hop of an SR path, but the PSID MUST NOT be po= pped off until it reaches at the egress node."

=0A

=0A

 You cannot define a behavior, = not to mention a "MUST" on a node which may not be compliant with this=0A = document.

=0A

I personally don't believe that you need to define a= new behavior and I would propose:

=0A

OLD:

= =0A

A PSID ca= n be used in the case of Penultimate Hop Popping (PHP), where some labels = are be popped off at the penultimate hop of an SR path,=0A but the PSID MU= ST NOT be popped off until it reaches at the egress node.

=0A

=0A

 NEW:

=0A

A = PSID can be used in the case of Penultimate Hop Popping (PHP), where some = labels are be popped off at the penultimate hop of an SR path.=0A As per r= egular MPLS processing, the label below (including the PSID in this case) = will not be popped by the penultimate node.

=0A

=

=0A

 -----

=0A

=C2=A72

=0A

=0A

 "In some d= eployments, service labels may be added after the Path Segment label in th= e MPLS label stack.=0A In this case, the egress node MUST be capable of pr= ocessing more than one label. The additional processing required, may have= an impact on forwarding performance."

=0A

I=0Abelive that when the PSID is used, there is _always_ an extra p= rocessing work on the data plane (the processing of the PSID). So I don't = think that this is specific to "some deployments" or "service label".=

=0A

If so, please rephrase.

=0A

=0A

 ---

=0A

=C2=A72

= =0A

"Entropy = label and Entropy Label Indicator (ELI) as described in [RFC8662] for SR-M= PLS path, can be placed before or after the PSID in the=0A MPLS label stac= k."

=0A

You seem to be re-specifying the EL spec. From the=0Aperspetive of this egress node, the ELI, EL MUST = be placed before the tunnel label (as per RFC6790) and the PSID MUST be pl= aced after the tunnel label (as per this document).

= =0A

So IMO th= is sentence is adding unnecessary confusion.

=0A

I would propose

=0A

OLD:

=0A

Entropy label and Entropy Label Indicator (E= LI) as described in [RFC8662] for SR-MPLS path, can be placed before or af= ter the PSID in the=0A MPLS label stack.

=0A

=0A

 NEW:

=0A

If Entropy Label i= s also used on this egress node, as per [RFC6790] the Entropy label Indica= tor (ELI) and Entropy Label (EL) would be placed=0A before the tunnel labe= l and hence does not interfere with the PSID which is placed below.=0A

=0A

 <= /p>=0A

 ----

=0A

=C2=A72

=0A

"Generic Associated Label (GAL) MAY be used for Operations, Administrat= ion and Maintenance (OAM) in MPLS networks [RFC5586]. When GAL is=0A used,= it MUST be added at the bottom of the label stack after the PSID."

=0A

=0A

 Reading R= FC 5586, that seems to be already the rule for GAL. =0AHence I don't think that this needs to be define= d as a new rule (MUST). Especially as this seems to indicate a variation (= before BoS vs after BoS) hence this may add confusion.=0A

I would= propose:

=0A

OLD: Generic Associated Label (GAL) MAY be used for = Operations, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) in MPLS networks [RFC5586= ]. When GAL=0A is used, it MUST be added at the bottom of the label stack = after the PSID.

=0A

NEW: Generic Associated Label (GAL) MAY be us= ed for Operations, Administration and Maintenance (OAM) in MPLS networks. = As per [RFC5586],=0A when GAL is used, it the ACH appears immediately afte= r the bottom of the label stack.

=0A

 

= =0A

---<= /o:p>

=0A

=C2=A72

=0A

 

=0A

"The MSD used for path com= putation MUST include the PSID."

=0A

 

= =0A

MSD is al= ready defined and you cannot redefine it with a new rule (MUST). Actually = RC 8491 already states that the MSD include all labels=0A that can be impo= sed ("the total number of MPLS labels that can be imposed, including all s= ervice/transport/special labels")

=0A

https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8491.html#sect= ion-5

=0A

 

=0A

I would propose=

=0A

OLD: = The MSD used for path computation MUST include the PSID. =0A

=0A

NEW: As per RFC8491 the MSD si= gnals the total number of MPLS labels that can be imposed. This includes t= he PSID.

=0A

 

=0A

-----

=0A

=C2=A72

=0A

"In addition, adding a PSID to a label stack will increase the depth o= f the label stack, the PSID should be accounted when considering Maximum= =0A SID Depth (MSD)[RFC8992]."

=0A

The above last sentence of =C2= =A72 seems to be duplicating some previous text (below) and hence seem not= useful. I would propose to remove it.

=0A

 

=0A

"The= SR path computation needs to know the Maximum SID Depth (MSD) that can be= imposed at each node/link of a given SR path [RFC8664]. This=0A ensures t= hat the SID stack depth of a computed path does not exceed the number of S= IDs the node is capable of imposing. The MSD used for path computation MUS= T include the PSID."

=0A

=0A

 

=0A

 <= /span>----

=0A

=C2=A73

=0A

"If an egress cannot support th= e use of the PSID, it MUST reject the=0Aattemption<= /span> of configuration."

=0A

<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial"= ;,sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">

=0A

 If a egress=0Adoest n= ot support PSID, how would it support the above rule?=0A

It would= seem easier to put the rule/burden on one pushing the PSID (e.g. the 'cen= tralized controller" although the latter is "out of scope=0A of this docum= ent")

=0A

=0A

 --

=0A

=C2=A77 (and also mostly =C2=A76)

= =0A

To some e= xtend, this whole section is about signaling the context and semantic of t= he PSID between the ingress and the egress. Personally=0A I would rather m= ove this section inside section 3.

=0A

=0A ---

=0A

=C2=A7 8. Security Conside= rations=0A

=0A

 =

=0A

 "no new security thr= eats are introduced comparing to current SR-MPLS"

=0A=

In general, = such statement may be read by security guys as "we did not really bothered= studying the security implications". IMO it's better=0A to put more text = to explain _why_ there is no impact on security.

=0A<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: = Calibri, sans-serif;">As a matter o= f fact, I'm not sure to agree with this statement: the one (e.g. an=0Aattacket) having the ability to signal a PSID va= lue to an ingress, would have the ability to signal any label including a = label value used as a service (VPN) label. This would trigger a VPN breach= (injecting packets in the VPN).

=0A

This may not be not specific = to the PSID, but even an "old" RFC with "old" security considerations is d= oing an effort well beyond "nothing=0A new". https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5036#s= ection-5

=0A

So please consider enhancing the security conside= ration.

=0A

 

=0A

=  

=0A

Thanks,

=0A

BR

=0A

--Bruno

=0A
=0A
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