Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> Thu, 27 February 2020 18:09 UTC
Return-Path: <warren@kumari.net>
X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1BC93A0E76 for <spring@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:09:44 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i38lu2NBqj-Z for <spring@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:09:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com (mail-qk1-x730.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A9BC3A0E79 for <spring@ietf.org>; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:09:39 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id m9so276711qke.4 for <spring@ietf.org>; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:09:39 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uX+Ida6Aol8H0/p7hlnCkO3XjuYgfkhJIFzYeLXZC8o=; b=cKZQN3UW/PA41hNsIY7UFkPWuixi8SDLLkJvNLzZv/aHvJm2F5fR6VnUZDS+sFB/k7 gbWPnrH2ARs7JQu47UEkUK4nKRNoQzPeAgMTvMlSqovpqVoeHg1eR99b7WhnVTEXjfHR JzfInIW5txwlfiRtfnnU2GsqB3GqAmtqSs5NYPl+q1h1Zjfu+mOlmA8ufsBMfSrxeCnS /VoVNbLX1Hb2G07z4P0wu9ew9bwXh2nr7MD9vEGHx7kO8aTvoO/0KeLEMjKa4ZGcb4yN BqzJ4wJrucclSImC+H82JBpP2E/BODeTgDvPQxBKR7I40BvQVRShWlexg9XA10rG1vE9 3PfQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uX+Ida6Aol8H0/p7hlnCkO3XjuYgfkhJIFzYeLXZC8o=; b=XMOgDDIyzN8nQt496FWx0ZSMQFLrWvsC8IbpNYUGNxciMuNt3TGGA/MKLuG37sB4Zo 9Ln5HAh8oBBmdJmtc08b2b0tTn8VjkhDBfswl+lrGsyINphYezLk3TSZvSzOqUf8S9X/ eT8wkdJI401kCBoBS+uUNX1YfIyGFChuW6RQnKUtQ/Hp6JzoqvVqCPatJgZ3EOi59IuK L9KqEo6IF5cXPdt93wKmQLKlIJal8Pu6PMLYpUBtQnJUjq3O+MzNw2WWorHnsn8vwr8N oVPADZO99rQcP9sO1iITwGhrhbkmLPqioI0miul+VBd+5OqgggDF052w10ZwPORkCXX+ dlkA==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVa6v45/MTX4U2dPA8uHkMg+W2xsuDecFVVJVYfBXp6UtHWdIKk f4I60wALOznlCgcfu+4NDeA2o2Bu82dH6W2Z4xBO6Q==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzJHbIuWxS/sq12fwrq8yXfqjFb3bRAps3zZYclNaIFxnPyl5exw6SCDCF1Oe9kOW2+0bKe+cG8qh9DaxPxb28=
X-Received: by 2002:a37:a8c3:: with SMTP id r186mr518702qke.37.1582826978185; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:09:38 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <F88E3F76-DD4B-4807-A458-85FABFF20D96@gmail.com> <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <CAHw9_iJ_ipEvU0NUx44XbK0_DrLe_GRw6G=m+chK4wZcRP8BMg@mail.gmail.com> <ACA082A4-BC78-4C63-9F91-5C9A44F47642@cisco.com> <b693c244-95f9-473e-de21-166393280d18@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <b693c244-95f9-473e-de21-166393280d18@gmail.com>
From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:09:01 -0500
Message-ID: <CAHw9_iL6oM73JnSU1QL0+PRohSH6sEskD=enH7QsPrWiUfStDg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, John Leddy <john@leddy.net>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/nIAqSeZJKq64QHbyy_ZrNqk_CXg>
Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" <spring.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/spring>, <mailto:spring-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/spring/>
List-Post: <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:spring-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring>, <mailto:spring-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 18:09:48 -0000
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 8:14 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: [SNIP] > > It's possible that "penultimate" means something else, e.g. "ultimate". I don't know. I've been puzzling over this language for months and it doesn't change. Maybe someone can finally post an explanation, but until they do, I don't see how any WG Chair could assert rough consensus. An obviously organised +1+1+1+1 campaign is not consensus. I don't know about you, but when I see a message whose only content is "+1" I just delete it. Actually, when I see a message whose content is just "+1" (or something similar like "I support this"), and the sender hasn't been deeply involved in the conversation, I start thinking it is vote stuffing. If this happens repeatedly I become increasingly convinced of this. "We reject: kings, presidents, and voting. We believe in: rough consensus and running code." - we don't vote. Having a thousand people who have not made good technical points / provided substantive text / review / contributed to the discussion in a meaningful way suddenly say "I support this" is not just meaningless, it is actively harmful - who are they? what do they know? what does their opinion matter? why did someone feel it necessary to recruit them? This is true for a bunch of *known* people from the same company / group / organization / similar all suddenly arriving and supporting or objecting to a position without good (and distinct!) reasons. Over time people build up credibility - if Brian Carpenter (or Randy Bush or Russ Housley or John Scudder or ...) simply adds a "I support foo" (or "+1") message to a thread it *does* carry weight; their statement isn't made in a vacuum - I consider if they have demonstrated previous knowledge *in the topic*, if they have made useful contributions, etc. before deciding if their comment *means* anything, and what bias it carries. I can spend all day supporting <insert some topic here>, but unless I have *demonstrated* knowledge, skillset and a track record, my support isn't useful.. W > Brian > > > Moreover, this 'proof' can technically wait until the IETF last call or even until the IESG ballot. I see little point in postponing the closing of the WGLC and advancing the document (of course, the document shepherd will need to carefully write the section about the rough WG consensus). > > > > Finally, as far as I know, at the IETF we have no religion... else we would still be running NCP or IPv4 :-) > > > > -éric > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> > > > > ...%<...%<.... > > > > It doesn't really matter how many people say +1 for moving it forwards > > -- if there are valid technical objections these have to be dealt with > > - and I think that the relationship with RFC8200 falling into this > > category... > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Dongjie (Jimmy)
- [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward… Lizhenbin
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Huzhibo
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… xiechf@chinatelecom.cn
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Chengli (Cheng Li)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… dzp
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… liupengyjy@outlook.com
- [spring] 答复: Request to close the LC and move for… Chenxia (D)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Zafar Ali (zali)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Dirk Steinberg
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Bob Hinden
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… John Leddy
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Warren Kumari
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Mike Simpson
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… 神明達哉
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… john leddy.net
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Mark Smith
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Voyer, Daniel
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Bob Hinden
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Satoru Matsushima
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Gaurav Dawra
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Stefano Salsano
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Weiqiang Cheng
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… =?utf-8?B?WWlzb25nIExpdQ==?=
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Stefano Salsano
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Bernier, Daniel
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ahmed Bashandy
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Dirk Steinberg
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Mark Smith
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Maojianwei (Mao)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ted Lemon
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Andrew Alston
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Stefano Salsano
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Xiejingrong (Jingrong)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Voyer, Daniel
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Voyer, Daniel
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ted Lemon
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ted Lemon
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Stefano Salsano
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Alexander Vainshtein
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Andrew Alston
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… John Scudder
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Stefano Salsano
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… James Guichard
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Warren Kumari
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ted Lemon
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ted Lemon
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Warren Kumari
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… 神明達哉
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ted Lemon
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Sander Steffann
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… 神明達哉
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Mark Smith
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Keyur Patel
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… 神明達哉
- [spring] "penultimate segment" [Re: Request to cl… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] "penultimate segment" [Re: Request t… Stefano Salsano
- Re: [spring] "penultimate segment" [Re: Request t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] "penultimate segment" [Re: Request t… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… S Moonesamy
- [spring] 答复: Request to close the LC and move for… huruizhao
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Tim Chown
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Chengli (Cheng Li)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… S Moonesamy
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… S Moonesamy
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… bruno.decraene
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… S Moonesamy
- [spring] Automated Disclaimers (RE: Request to cl… Alvaro Retana
- Re: [spring] Automated Disclaimers (RE: Request t… S Moonesamy
- Re: [spring] Automated Disclaimers (RE: Request t… Barry Leiba
- Re: [spring] Automated Disclaimers (RE: Request t… S Moonesamy
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Alexander Vainshtein
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Alexander Vainshtein
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Darren Dukes (ddukes)
- Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move for… Alexander Vainshtein