Re: [spring] Introduction of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming (was Re: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: Relative advantages of SRv6)

["Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <[e-mail]>]

Hi Byron,

Thank you for your feedback.
It is very important for SPRING to know which documents are important for operators. This helps defining the action items for SPRING WG.

draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming is a Standards Track document that focuses on technical specification for interoperable implementation. Any comparison of SRv6 vs SR-MPLS in my opinion does not fit within this document.
These two dataplanes for Segment Routing were introduced in RFC8402 and the IPv6 use-cases described in RFC8354.

Thank you,
Pablo.

From: "Hoskins, B. J. [CTO]" <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, 21 January 2020 at 16:08
To: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>, Ron Bonica <[e-mail]>, "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <[e-mail]>
Cc: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: [spring] Introduction of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming (was Re: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: Relative advantages of SRv6)

Hi Pablo and SPRING,

First time caller long time listener.  I just want to weigh in in support of the original request and further color on SRv6 advantages beyond “mere packet routing.”  I’ve been following the work here for some time and as an operator of an MPLS network it’s just not clear to me, if forced to choose for a brownfield scenario, what the real world advantages are that SRv6 brings over SR-MPLS.  To me, for existing deployments, the path to SR-MPLS just seems much less riskier and I just can’t see what the driver for me to choose SRv6 would be.

Regards,

B. J. Hoskins

From: spring [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of [e-mail]
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2020 10:54 AM
To: Ron Bonica <[e-mail]>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <[e-mail]>
Cc: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [spring] Introduction of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming (was Re: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: Relative advantages of SRv6)

Ron,


From: Ron Bonica [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 4:58 PM


Bruno,

Would you like Pablo and me to develop text offline and bring it back to the mailing list? Or would you prefer us to craft the text in a few emails on the mailing list?
[Bruno] Any option works on my side. I’m not assuming that this comment is any special.
If both of you believe that you can quickly agree on some text and that the sync would be easier offline, please do so.
However, if you can’t agree within a reasonable period (1 or 2 weeks) please bring back the discussion to the list.

Thank you,
--Bruno

                                                                                    Ron




Juniper Business Use Only
From: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]> <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 9:00 AM
To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; Ron Bonica <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Introduction of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming (was Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: Relative advantages of SRv6)

Pablo,

Thanks for the reply.
I’m not seen explicitly what you are proposing to address Ron’s comment, regarding the clarification of this sentence in the draft.
May I again suggest that both of you follow up to progress on a resolution to clarify the meaning of this sentence in the draft?

Thanks,
Bruno


From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 6:43 PM
To: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN
Cc: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: Introduction of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming (was Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: Relative advantages of SRv6)

(Updated the subject to reflect the new topic of this thread: the introduction of this draft)

Bruno,

You are correct. In essence we are saying the same thing as the 3rd line of RFC8402.
A segment can represent any instruction, topological or
   service based.

For example, for service programming we have a draft-ietf-spring-sr-service-programming. This goes beyond mere packet routing. NET-PGM provides the base and draft-ietf-spring-sr-service-programming builds on top of that.

Thanks,
Pablo

From: "[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail]<mailto:bruno.decraene@orange..com>>
Date: Tuesday, 14 January 2020 at 11:02
To: Ron Bonica <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>, "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: "[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Subject: RE: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: Relative advantages of SRv6

Hello Ron, Pablo,

From: Ron Bonica [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2020 9:38 PM
To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN
Cc: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
Subject: RE: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: Relative advantages of SRv6

Hello Bruno.

According to the network programming draft, “Network programming combines segment routing functions, both simple and complex, to achieve a networking objective that goes beyond mere packet routing.”

Sadly, the document offers little insight as to what those non-routing objectives might be.
Ron,
Thank you for elaborating on this comment. The scope of the revised comment seem to me more focused and now indeed related to this document.

Ron, Pablo,
May I suggest that you both follow up to progress on a resolution on the comment on this sentence?

e.g. clarify what is meant by “beyond packet routing”, and/or what is exactly meant by this sentence beyond what is already stated in the SR architecture (which for example, but not restricted to, states that  “A segment can represent any instruction, topological or service based.” )
If this can’t be reasonably clarified, worse case could possibly be to remove this sentence or fall back to a reference to the/a SR architecture RFC/section/sentence. As of today, I don’t assume that this point would be a blocking point to progress that document or to delay it for a long time.


Thank you,
--Bruno



If SRv6 offers something beyond the mere packet routing capabilities of SR-MPLS, the network programming draft would be the most appropriate place to mention it. Otherwise, SRv6 is just an IPv6 version of SR-MPLS.

                                                                   Ron




Juniper Business Use Only
From: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]> <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2020 8:12 AM
To: Ron Bonica <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco..com<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Subject: RE: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: Relative advantages of SRv6

Ron,


From: spring [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Ron Bonica
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 8:14 PM
To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
Cc: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: Relative advantages of SRv6

Chairs,

I believe that we have two independent requests for a comparison of the benefits of SRv6 over SR-MPLS in the network programming draft.

A comparison of the benefits of SRv6 over SR-MPLS is one thing that could possibly be discussed if there is interest from the WG.
E.g. to help network provider make a choice, or in the context of “beyond SRv6” to help the WG identify the benefit/cost analysis of existing solutions and what we want to achieve with new/extensions to SR data planes.

But why do you think that this would belong to draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming?

Thanks,
--Bruno


                                                            Ron




Juniper Business Use Only
From: spring <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> On Behalf Of Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 11:55 AM
To: Ron Bonica <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: Relative advantages of SRv6

Ron,

If you want to discuss your analysis please let’s do so in a separate email thread out of the context of the Working Group Last Call of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming.

As I said before: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming is a Standards Track document and this topic is not about any standardization, hence out of scope of this document.

Same applies to other content (e.g. illustrations) that was formerly in network programming and we moved to a separate draft since it was not standardizing anything at all and was merely informative.

Thanks,
Pablo.

From: Ron Bonica <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Date: Tuesday, 7 January 2020 at 19:17
To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: SPRING WG <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Subject: RE: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: Relative advantages of SRv6

Pablo,

RFC 8354 reinforces my analysis in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/3WGuQumIfcmH281nwq3s9Un6raI<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Fmailarchive.ietf.org%2Farch%2Fmsg%2Fspring%2F3WGuQumIfcmH281nwq3s9Un6raI__%3B!!NEt6yMaO-gk!SolNvh35q4NS-PTVWOxXAzbTnMHltfvPWi_OSjhMYkmm_NucR6imYrrLvc35Kat6%24&data=02%7C01%7CByron.Hoskins%40sprint.com%7C43b42b68413641d34c5a08d79b6df264%7C4f8bc0acbd784bf5b55f1b31301d9adf%7C0%7C0%7C637148768858163512&sdata=xOUa%2BRAi%2Bd%2F6nSpGZrj2lVww2XPsml%2FI0lo1yYMkzms%3D&reserved=0>. Are you saying that you agree with this analysis?

                                             Ron






Juniper Business Use Only
From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Sent: Tuesday, January 7, 2020 4:17 AM
To: Ron Bonica <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: SPRING WG <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: Relative advantages of SRv6

Ron,

SPRING has already done this work and documented the SRv6 use-cases in RFC8354 before progressing with the SRv6 standardization.

Further on, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming is a Standards Track document.
I fail to see how a cite from RFC8354 or any other text on “SRv6 vs SR-MPLS” standardises anything at all.
Note that we have already removed text from draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming (e.g. illustrations) because it was not standardising anything.

Thank you for the suggestion,
Pablo.

From: spring <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> on behalf of Ron Bonica <rbonica=[e-mail]<mailto:rbonica=[e-mail]>>
Date: Monday, 30 December 2019 at 11:08
To: SPRING WG <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Subject: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: Relative advantages of SRv6

Pablo,

Would you consider adding a short section to the draft explaining the relative advantages of SRv6 over SR-MPLS? This section would explain why an network operator would deploy SRv6 instead of SR-MPLS.

                                                                                         Ron



Juniper Business Use Only

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